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I just started up space wolves, and I'v been thinking of various list options but I always run in to problems. I'm not a big fan of vehicles, it doesn't seem wary "wolfy" to me. At the same time there seem to bee few aether options.
It seams that the wolves are limited in many ways:
1. No deep strike terminators limiting you to drop pods an land raiders. Lr:s being very expensive and drop pods forcing you to come in in waves and be vulnerable to opponent reserving his force.
2. Blood- swift- and sky claws being recruits and having headstrong rule almost forcing you to take a wolf priest if you want them. non of them counting as troops.
3. Scouts being elite instead of troops.
All this seem to me to make it very difficult to build a SW army based on fast attack, deep strike and or fotslooging.
Can some one help a new warhammer player out. And give me some pointers on how to think when building lists fore SW:s. Is it impossible to build this kind of lists, if it's possible can you give some pointers on how to make good list with out lots of tanks. A good list to me doesn't have to be tournament competitive but I want to be able to win every now and then against my more experienced friends. It is also a somewhat fluffy list.
Thanks in advance!
I'm not a big fan of vehicles either, and I build what I think are successful footslogging SW armies. I own 1 drop pod, and 1 dreadnought. Zero rhinos or any other vehicle. I played against someone a little while back who goes to grand tournaments. He very closely guessed how many guys I had in my list after I said I was footslogging Space Wolves. He says he's seen pretty much every build of every army there is - and as for where he saw footslogging Space Wolves before he faced me: at a Grand Tournament where he placed 3rd, the Winner of the entire thing was a Space Wolves footslogger.
Anyways, to make a long story short, you haven't much to worry about - Space Wolves are, at the very least, not bad footsloggers at all.
As for what you think are limits:
1. Terminators in drop pods are not so much of a limitation. Codex Marines and Blood Angels Terminator squads can't take drop pods at all, and can only deepstrike. Keep in mind that you don't mishap with drop pods, but you do with teleporting. Furthermore, when units deepstrike, they have to arrive clumped up. They then have to make a choice between shooting that turn or running just to spread themselves out. Space Wolves Temrinators coming by drop pod do not have to make that choice, as they can disembark from the pod (ie not in a clump) and fire that turn. The tradeoff is the points you pay for the drop pod and not being able to fit a full terminator squad in a drop pod. Personally, if I used terminator squads (which I don't and never have), I'd rather drop pod over deepstrike.
2. Blood claws are scoring troops. Also, you can curb the headstrong rule with any wolf guard leader and/or independent character, not just wolf priests (though wolf priests are still a great choice when matched with blood claws).
3. I will take a squad of wolf scouts any day over marine scouts. In fact, I do. In just about every single list over 1000 points, I have wolf scouts. I've drawn up a few lists with the SM codex just fooling around with it, and have never even considered taking scouts for too long.
Also, the hammer of almost all my armies are the Thunderwolf Cavalry - my very favourite fast attack choice (of any codex, not just Space Wolves). I usually keep them in reserve, and on the turn they arrive, and charge potentially half way across the board.
Here are some threads I've started about my army. The first one is one of my more competitive builds. The second is what it looks like on the tabletop. Hopefully it helps:
Thanks fore the encouragement! It's nice to hear that fotsloggers can succeed in this mech world :-) Maybe what I need most is a bit more confides...
Blood claws are obviously troops, my bad a bit to fast thinking there. Have you used claws in any form is the lower stats a big problem, that is the main reason I felt you almost have to have a priest, to compensate for WS/BS 3 and make use of berserk.
I do love wolf scouts to, nothing beats a knife in the back, I just feel a bit low on troop alternatives.
You'r list looks interesting, I might work something out from that one. Maybe ad a dead or two and or bikes.
Thanks fore the help!
I used to run blood claws. In fact, I had more blood claws than I've ever had grey hunters. However, that was back in the old Space Wolves codex. I had 3 squads of 15 blood claws, each with attached and fully kitted wolf guard leader (so, 16 power armoured bodies in each squad). Plus the mandatory grey hunter squad. That's 58 power armoured bodies so far, that can take on just about anything, as the core of the army - all scoring troops. Then, add the wolf scouts, hq's, ven dread, sometimes long fangs (but not often) - just picture facing that army on the table. It was very powerful. In objectives, I had 58 scoring models in power armour - most of them have 4 attacks in the first round of combat, even if the opponent gets the charge (and they're cheaper than a basic marine!). In kill points, they really shine, with such large squads. Are they killable? absolutely. Just like marines. The opponent would go through and finally kill 16 power armoured models, and feel like they've really accomplished something. Then, realize they've got 1 single kill point. In the meantime, I've taken out at least half, or most of their army, for lets say 6 or 7 kill points - half of them from little things like transports. Took this army to a tournament, and got 1st place for best general.
In the current codex, you can do much of the same as what I did there with blood claws, though with a slight nerf (you don't get berserk charge anymore when counter-attacking - only when you actually charge) and slight increase in points (though they're still cheaper than your basic space marine). However, in the new codex, grey hunter packs got so much better than any other basic MEQ that it almost seems unfair (and just like the blood claws, cost less than basic space marines). Also, long fangs are still the same, but due to a massive decrease in points cost, are now actually a very good choice.
Wolf scouts, maybe not a must-have (well, to me they are), but simply amazing - especially if you intend to footslog.
As for your concern with blood claws' lower BS and WS, it is something you'll need to work around. You will be that much more combative with blood claws, as I used to run them (60 attacks on the charge from a full squad of blood claws, vs 30 attacks from a full squad of grey hunters). Against most targets in combat, you'll be hitting on 4+ anyways, whether with grey hunters or blood claws. However, as you can see in my army list, I've gone all grey hunters now and is much better now at shooting. My army was actually shootier than most people gave it credit for - which I found was a common mistake when people faced it. With the setup I have now with the current codex, it is far shootier than it ever was, and even more potent in combat.
Last edited by Takeda; September 22nd, 2010 at 04:15.
One of the biggest reasons people go mech is for mobility but also to try to avoid getting charged (vehicles make good bunkers sometiems).
Space wolves don't care if they get charged. They practically dare you to. Makes me believe footslogging would work...
And their devestators (long fangs) tho smaller in squad size they get that extra heavy weapon... and all for a lot cheaper than normal SM devastators. Kinda annoys me slightly, but lends well to the foot slogging theme.
I feel like we just had this conversation.... oh ya
there, check that out for arguments for or against mech. Takeda makes a nice little speach in there too.
My feeling exactly about blood claws <-> grey hunters. I'v only played like 5 games but that time I used both a couple of GH squads and a BC squad. The defensive ability of the GH:s was surprising. In many situations I cold just sit back rapid fire and take the charge.
When thinking of fotslogging I have thought if necessary to compensate the slow movement with sooty, fast and outflanking elements like long fangs, scouts, thunder wolfs and bikes or even deards (pod Mmelta, plasma cannon or 2x auto cannon). In your list Takeda you use wolf guard CML, TWC and scouts. In the link from Guthbrand (thanks it was enlightening), you state that bikes and jump packs (but SW don't use JP, if waking was good enough fore Leman Russ...) are hard to make use of, how so? I was a bit tempted by a bike squad and wolf priest besides a squad of TWC of coarse. You also mentioned you ones used Bjorn, would another plasma dreads be to exposed in a list of infantry or are thy a good way to get some more shootyness. Also you use a 10 man scout squad stating that thy'r not a suicide unit, can they really stand there on and if they do isn't it tempting to put in a plasma pistol and maybe a power sword?
Sorry fore having so many questions but, this really helps me out. I always seen a foot, fast attack army before me then I think of space wolves but I didn't quite got my head around how to build an actual list. thanks again fore all the help.
1. Packs of 10 Grey Hunters led by a WGPL in termie armor, combi-melta, and chainfist. Pack has 2 meltaguns, one model with MotW, and a model with the Wolf Standard.
2. A pack of 15 Blood Claws, at your force's core, led by a Wolf Priest and a WGPL. Wolf Priest in runic armor & a WTT, WGPL in termie armor, combi-melta, and a chainfist. Pack has two meltaguns.
Countined advice at : Space Wolves
Hope this helps.
I have played around with lists to include blood claw packs. Personal preference here, but I prefer flamers on blood claws, to make the most of them despite their reduced BS. Meltaguns for grey hunters