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Ok so first things first, I have been playing this game for a very long time and I guess maybe I am somewhat stuck in my ways.
Which because of my pride I am using this as my excuse to my dilemma:
How do I build a tourney worthy army that can deal with the power and armour that the Guard bring to the table and then in the very next game bring down that hoard (and still insane power) that the orks bring as well.
As a space marine player I actually feel lost, and so far no matter what list I have tried and no matter how janky as hell I have made the list, I still can not beat (or even draw) both those armies with the same list.
I would love to get some advice on this as if this continues then I may have to pack up the marines for a while and that is really not something that I want to do.
Slaanesh, god of the beer goggles
I am a space wolf player so I don't know that much about the generic marines but what I have learned over the many games that I have played is that an ork horde army can simply be taken out with enough SM bodies as long as you charge them. A squad of 10 SMs that charge a 30 man ork squad can effectively bring them down to about 22-20 orks, which the marines will survive just fine to. This will bring them down to about 15-13 orks after their fearless saves.
As for the guard... meltas, meltas, meltas (and maybe a dash of lascannon goodness). This of course means that you will have to get close to those rumbling behemoths to have any effect with the melta's. There are a few options to help with this; Landspeeder MMs, drop-podding duel melta squads, or even landraiders with a MM on it. Other than that, you will jsut have to weather the storm (or if you're unlucky enough, hurricane/tornado) until you get close enough.
After you get past the vehicles all that your left with are... guardsmen... plain ol' guardsmen... These little buggers can easily taken out with regular bolter fire or just assault the poor bastards. But remember, don't underestimate their numbers. Just because guard infantry are weak doesn't mean that it is impossible for them to hurt you. So just be wary when going into a fire fight with them, make sure you have enough SMs left to clean house.
Last edited by bubby456; November 13th, 2010 at 05:31.
As a BA, you want to get the charge on them. Guards are weak to SM in close combat while we deny the orks their charge. With Priest, FNP and furious charge, it double our effectiveness. I tend to run 10 men assault squad with two meltagun and a powerfist sergeant with a priest attach. Baal predator with heavybolter sponsons are a win too.
For SM, Vulcan is a good hq, meltas, flamers, and thunderhammers are twin linked or mastercrafted. Bikes squads will work wonders though expensive. 2 flamer or two meltagun then plus a multi melta will get rid of all the tanks or infantry depending on the loadout. Devastator squad with 4 missile launcher is another good method. krak for tanks, frag for troops. In a rogue trader tournament last week, My 1 squad of devastator popped 4 vehicles against a transport heavy SM. (2 vindicator, 1 rhino, 1 landspeeder.) and against a hordey ork player, the frags did 15-24 wounds, and bout 10-15 kills turn. Landspeeders are just plain awesome.
A drop pod with sternguards are nice, give them combi meltas and they are scary tank hunters. their regular bolters works just as good against hordes, or give them combi flamers. stick lysander with them, and you get bolter drill.
Rifleman Dreads work brilliantly. TL S7 shots from 48" really hurt both those armies. You should be able to kill Chimeras/Trukks/Valkyries alright, and they wound both armies on a 2+ with no saves! 3 of these is a good start, damage right from turn one.
Vindicator just isn't going to cut it, if you're against a great player they will spread out or be in cover, don't expect that much damage! And you expose those squishy side platings... Predators are what you need, probably Destructors. Cheep and armour 13, bargain! Lascannons are tempting, but their power is deceptive; TL Autocannons do it just fine against AV12 and below (transports), and both are pretty poor against AV13+ (Leman Russ/Battlewaggons) or hordes. This is where we need MELTA
Here is the shangri la of melta lovers. Landspeeders and Attack Bikes...mmm. I don't need to say much about these, they come in from reserve 24" in the safety of their own cover saves, and next turn they blow up all the silly expensive things. The Landspeeder can have a Heavy Flamer too and is certainly more flexible, more expensive. Your call.
Honourable mentions go to the Land Speeder Typhoon, a really capable Anti-Transport system with 2Kraks, and a decent anti horde with 2Frags and a Heavy Bolter. Fragile though...
Another unit that deserves a mention is the Assault Terminator. Pricy, yes. Is 2+/3++ the best thing since slice bread? Oh yes. I've only ever teleported them so far and they always wreak house, but the better quality the opponent, the worse they'll do (they can't kill them, but they can just run away!)
Lastly, the rest of the list. 3Tactical Squads with Rhinos will do it I think. Guard often hide, so run them forwards. Orks can't really hurt Rhinos that move (6 to hit, 6 to glance for the boyz. 6 to hit for the Nob, who can hurt it yes. Then you hop out and Flame about 10 to death and sweep the rest in Assault. Flamers don't work if you just stand there and hope, bunch them up and knock them down. Usually I'd recommend a Librarian, and no reason not to have one here either. Psychic hood is a bit useless as is Null Zone unless it's Ork Bikers, but THE AVENGER has its place, and Force Dome is always handy!
Sorry thats a bit of a wall. But to recap:
Ignore the support, the transports start falling out of the sky. Ignore the MM/HF and the big tanks get wasted. This is scary. What's more scary is when those little ignored Rhinos dump a wave of marines in their face. Hope it helped.
Something I did against IG (they were traitor guard) in an APOC game that totally blew my opponent away. Melta bombs on all your sergeants. I rhino them across the field literally right next to his baneblade, hoped out Had cover, lost some guys, since the bane blade didn't move(typically guard wont move thier tanks to get full fire effect) you get auto hit on rear armour with 2d6+8, which is going to pin most likely.
Then POP goes the baneblade!
Took out 2 structure points, then I had a captain that managed to foot slog his way up their and he melta bomb too. Pop again, bye bye bane blade, you should have seen this kids face. LOL BRILLIANT.
As for the hordes use flamers and blast weapons. Also if you got a cheap tank like a rhino, never underestimate a good tank shock, especailly agaisnt low leadership units. But do not do this with expensive tanks such as land raiders, they will most likely leave a guy to try and pop it. With a rhino if they do, not a big deal, you only lost 35 points.
"For Plunder and Women!"
Bretonnians 7500, Empire 3300, Dwarfs 4800; Space Marines 2000, Tyranids 3000
Tactical Squads in Rhinos is a good buy against both types of opponents. For weapons load I would personally go for either melta + plasmacannon or cheap flamer + missile launcher. Also remember to give the sarge something he can hurt a tank with (powerfist, meltabombs or both). For reasons already discussed these are the guys you'll be depending on for much of the fight so really concentrate on using them right. Dreadnoughts and Vindicators are also very cool here. Actually, even a well-positioned Thunderfire cannon can be quite handy. Many Orks and IG armies depend on cover-saves once their transporst have popped and TFC can really mess them with the airburst shells.
Revenant Moon Necrons: (W/L/D) 0/1/0 (6th edition: 13/2/2)(5th edition: 14/6/4)(3rd edition Codex: 16/4/7)
XIX Legion: (W/L/D) 0/0/0 (5th edition: 14/12/2)(5th edition Codex: 4/3/0)
Black Legion: (W/L/D) 1/0/0 (6th edition: 2/3/0)
Something Wicked... Reikwald Beastmen: (W/L/D) 10/4/1