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Hi guys, I'm new to this forum and kind of new at Warhammer itself. (I suck at it)
I play a lot against a friend of mine who plays Tyranids, he doesn't have too much himself, so we play games of around 1000 pts. And our only objective is basically to wipe each other's army out
The problem is.. I get owned.. A LOT!
My own list looks like this (last game)
1x Tactical Space marine squad (10 units) /w Heavy Bolter, Flamer Storm Bolter
1x Tactical Space Marine Squad (5 units) Storm bolter
1x Chapter Master /w Relic Blade, Artificer Armour, Jump pack
1x Assault Marine Squad (6 units) /w power weapon, storm shield
1x Terminator Squad (5 units) /w Assault Cannon
1x Dreadnaught /w Assault Cannon
This came down to 1003 pts. I might have forgotten some features, but this was the base
HIS army looks a bit like this:
2x Termagaunt Squad (18/19 units)
2x Genestealer Squad (9 units, 1 Broodlord attached)
2x Carnifex (close combat, no ranged weapons)
1x Tyranid Warrior Squad (Prime attached)
1x Zylanthrope? (One of dem flying brains)
He let's his Genestealers infiltrate..
What could possibly be a good tactic to beat a horde of incoming death from the front and from the sides D: once he's close, it's over..
And uh.. I apologize if this post is too long, or just bullcrap, or illegible, or useless.. which is quite likely.
Flamers, flamers and more flamers.
Instead of the heavy bolter and stormbolter try switching them up for extra flamers. Then give the termies a heavy flamer.
If you fight nids a lot then the flamer should be your weapon of choice. Seriously, nid players do not like them!
The best stratergy I can recomend for you would be a strong defensive line. Make a wall of flame and bolter rounds and make him come to you.
Have fun burning them bugs
I'm not a huge flamer fan, the template is what, 8" long? That's you charged next turn.
I believe his list is pretty slow? Has to keep in Synapse Range? So just chill out and shoot him down. Normally this is a bad tactic but in Annihilation it's good.
Not to spam your thread GoliathX, but had similar issues with monstrous creatures. Granted your friend doesn't have the nasty nasty ones like the Trygon or Hive Tyrant, but here is a thread I posted on this a while back. I received some good advice and annihilated my enemy.
Now to your question.
With the Gensetealers, here is what you do.
Deploy 19'' from each flank before the game starts, and make sure you don't move into this range. Also deploy at least 19'' from his at the beginning, this way he cannot get into assualt with you. he can at best move 6, run 6, assualt 6, unless he has leaping on his units, in which case he is going to get a 12'' move.
So bottom line, deploy in a TIGHTLY packed castle, 19'' from each side of the baord and 19'' from his front.
Do take flamers, they will save your ass. So what if you are within 8''
Use your pistols on your marines if you get that close and then use your flamers, do not fire heavy weapons. After you use this pistols ASSAULT him, This will at least get you more attacks. He is probably getting 2-3 per model I bet, furious charge, scything talons and all that nasty. Dont be afraid to charge him to deny him his extra attacks.
Focus your fire on one squad at a time, if you can drop most of his gaunts shooting then you can easily mop him up in assualt. There is no reason your 10 marines with rapid fire and flamers shouldn't be able to drop at least half if not 2/3 of his broods. That will leave him with fewer numbers which you can assualt.
Also deploy in cover, you will get to strike first if he assaults, as he does not have grenades. He may have flesh hooks but I doubt it.
You need to get some vehicles, whenever you buy your next unit, make it a vehicle.
Another trick. Run your dreadnought into his guants, they wont be able to hurt it and it will tie them up all game, unless something bigger comes along to help out, but at least you have tied him up. Give your dread the HF instead of the SB, get him up close and take out those gaunts.
Also use combat squads, make the heavy squad and the assualt squad. The heavy squad has 4 bolters and your heavy weapon, ML or HB in your case. The assualt squad takes the sergeant and the flamer. make sure you fire pistols with the assualt squad if you plan on assaulting, using rapid fire means no assualt. I learned this the hard way.
Targeting the synapse is good, but honestly not going to help simply because all this does is requires the targets to make a leadership test, if they fail they assualt the closest unit. You could bait a unit by doing this but that requires very good positioning and a bit of luck.
Get rid of the stormbolter and give the guy a flamer trust me and SkyDog, try it you will see. After you flame them assualt them.
Are the termies regular termies or assualt termies? I am assuming regular. Use them to instant kill his warriors, also using krak ML shots on the warriors will IK them as well.
The Zoanthrope is nasty, has a high invul save and some good range weapons. However, it has to be close. You want to assault the zoanthrope as it sucks in close combat. use your jump packs and fly into assualt range and assault the zoantrhope. Also if you get in a tight spot and think your shooty tac squad is going to get assaulted, have your assualt marines jump up in fron to of them and provide a screen then se your tac squad to rapid fire. This way when if he assualt he is locking up your assualt squad.
Your biggest problem is going to be taking down his two Carnifexes as you have no real big weapons. Your Captain and Termies will probably have the best chance of doing this in CC. Otherwise you may want to consider putting a lascannon on your dread. DO NOT CC with the dread, they will pop him easy, MC get 2d6 to Pen.
Just make sure you have a plan, each of your units should be in charge of killing one of his... So in summary,
Assualt Marines kill Zoanthrope
Captian and termies kill the Carnifexes, also if you have ML Use them instead of the HB since you are lacking anit tank.
Tactical squad, gaunts and genelstealrs.
Dreadnought fights gaunts and genestealers (keep your dread away from his zoanthrope)
Anyone with ML should shoot at the Tyranid Warriors.
Wow this got really long, sorry about that.
Last edited by Reiko; December 2nd, 2010 at 20:07. Reason: Fixed typos
"For Plunder and Women!"
Bretonnians 7500, Empire 3300, Dwarfs 4800; Space Marines 2000, Tyranids 3000
Would your friend let you run these as Scouts? 5 Tactical Marines, in an Annihilation match, is a bit of an aimless unit. All they can do is chuck out a handful of bolt shells, but sniper scouts can take out carnifexes with luck (and time). Tactical squads really need 10 men to get the big guns. Either way, powerfist.1x Tactical Space Marine Squad (5 units) Storm bolterGood. Relic Blade/Art. Armour is a must for all my commanders. I'd drop the jump pack, and give him hellfire shells plus maybe a combi-melta/flamer.1x Chapter Master /w Relic Blade, Artificer Armour, Jump packDrop this unit to pay for the upgrades elsewhere.1x Assault Marine Squad (6 units) /w power weapon, storm shieldGood1x Terminator Squad (5 units) /w Assault CannonAlso good, although if it were an Iron Clad dread you'd get AV13, which makes you pretty much immune to everything bar the 'fexes and 'thrope. Also, a second big gun (missile launcher, autocannon) would do you very nicely.1x Dreadnaught /w Assault CannonWith no synapse, these guys would need to take a Ld5 check to do anything but hide in area terrain. Ignore them until they get close, then roast and carve.2x Termagaunt Squad (18/19 units)Try and get the charge on these with your terminators and/or dreadnaught - it'll cut down his attacks by 33% and increase yours by 50%. Sure he's faster than you but if he's not ridiculously lucky he'll only get one or two rending hits. Letting him charge is where he gets more dangerous.2x Genestealer Squad (9 units, 1 Broodlord attached)These can safely be ignored until you've dealt with the big threats.2x Carnifex (close combat, no ranged weapons)Shoot these as early as possible - they're his primary synapse, and the prime makes them quite good in CC.1x Tyranid Warrior Squad (Prime attached)Zoanthropes can be a pain, but a single S8 hit kills them dead. Powerfists, missile launchers, all good1x Zylanthrope? (One of dem flying brains)So don't let him get closeWhat could possibly be a good tactic to beat a horde of incoming death from the front and from the sides D: once he's close, it's over..
The biggest weakness 'nids have is against tanks. For your next purchases, I'd recommend any of the following, in no particular order
- another dreadnaught, long ranged weapons
- a landspeeder or two (built with Typhoon Missile Launcher, a damn good 'thrope killer)
- a Rhino or two (but buy razorbacks, as you can build them to swap the top which will let you field it as both - I'd recommend just the standard heavy bolter for the RB turret)
- Vindicator (good for killing ANYTHING )
- Whirlwind (good for killing genestealers/gaunts from miles away)
id say if you play him a lot get a vindicator if it hits with templete rolls you can wipe out the whole squad from one shot ive done this many times and tyranids dont have much to stun or shake it which is usually the problem with using vindicators.
For your next stuff to get would be another 5 man tactical squad to make your current one a 10 man. 5 man tactical squads do little damage 10 man do alot. after you do this get 2 razorback(which can be used as rhino as said in post above).
If you play him a lot a 10 man sniper squad to kill Carnifexs scouts look weak but this is one unit they are ment to take down equip this squad with a heavy bolter and the whole suad only cost around 140 points. And this squad can hold objective, it usually takes one to two turns to kill a fex. This is the cheapest way to take out high toughness models and in cover with camo cloaks they get a 3+ save against all shots but flamers which tyranids have but dont use. With sniper you always wounjd on 4s and you have rending on 6's. This units can also pin other tyranid squads who arnt in synapse range pretty easily making them usless.
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...t-tactica.html (Scout Tactica:)
An alternative method to snipers is sternguard veterns who with hellfire always wounds on 2's a squad of 10 comign in at around 250 in a rhino can kill a carnifex in one turn. And they have various other ammo to kill other tyranid squads with.
Also once you get all this grab yourself a land rander redeemer/crusader it will let you terminators ride in style and its the only effective way to deliever them to combat without deaths. Also throw in a terminator chaplin IMO rerolls to hit.
referring to post above id rather run 5 man devastator squad with missle launchers over land speeder typhoons/
Last edited by SergeantTelion; December 2nd, 2010 at 22:04.
Space marines 6 dread army Wins: 4 ties:2 Loses:7 Modified Standard nilla marines Wins:37 Ties:8 Loses 42 Daemonhunters Wins:3 Ties:0 Loses:1 Full assualt concept army wins: 6 Ties: none Loses: 2
After reading this post I have to say :
1) I totaly disagree with the thought of deploying your troops 19" away from the table edge and away from the enemy (You are not allowed to mesure the distance but only if you play Dawn of War). Infiltrators can flank you but they can also be deployed 12" to 18" away from you. A lot of units with no space between them is what the tyranid player wants. A tyranid player hates distances especially when he has to run them in the open. The best way to play against infiltrators is to try and have line of sight almost every where so to be sure that he will be 18" away from you.
2)Flamers are the best weapons for me in this edition. They are the best troop hunting weapons. They way they resolve simultaneously forces the oponent to take lots of saves or just get burned. But they are not good enough if you don't have rhinos,razorbacks or drop pods. I saw you have none of these.
3)The golden rule against swarm army is "shoot the closest enemy unit". When I say shoot I mean count the shots you need to destroy every single model in this unit and spent them on it. Remeber that even one tyranid model is enough to block line of sight and maybe deny you the chance of another shooting face if it is in charge range. So beware try not to deploy one of your units infront of the other.
3) Q: What weapons to choose against Tyranids?
Frag Shot : Str 4 Ap 6 Blast The best choice against the T3 units he has.
Krak Shot : Str 8 Ap 3 Excellent chance to wound an roll of 2+, 3 out of 4 hit BD with no luck at all just statistics all 3 of them wound. No save for the big ones and they have to try and find cover something hard for big boys they need to be 50% covered from terrain pieces to get the 4+ cover save. Terminators are also good. Try using Cyclone missile launcher. It has the same profile with the simple launcher but it's heavy2 . Please try using Power Fists. Power weapons are good against the T3 and T4 models with one wound but power fists are better against all his units. Try playing Vanguard Assault Marines for more Relic blades if you like your assalt marines as they are just use a Power Fist and a flamer.
Thanks guys, I see a lot of useful advice.. it just leaves me with a couple of questions..
First: Flamers. I don't really see the point of them, you can fire them a single time, if your lucky. after that it may be possible to assault, but since most nids have a higher initiative than Marines, they get butchered before they land a hit. I prefer a Heavy Bolter and maybe a lascannon.. but they're Heavy weapons, so I can't run away from an inevitable assault..
Second: Since he focusses on melee units, I don't think vehicles will be that great. They always get attacked by their rear armour, which makes them asplode pretty quick when attacked by a brood of Genestealers.. plus, they can't move AND fire in a single turn...... right?
Third: There's just too many of them. He places his larger units behind his wave of termagaunts, giving them a bloody cover save, saves his hide every time. meaning I have to beat through the gaunts, before blasting the heavier units.
Fourth: If only a single gaunt breaks through, one of my squads or vehicles will be in assault phase, making it unable to fire. this is usually the point where my winning chances crumble. I tend to place the terminators and/or my dreadnaught in front.
Fifth: "Kill his Synaps" sounds like a sweet strategy on paper.. too bad his Zoanthrope has Synaps, along with his Warriors and the Broodlord.. that's a lot of synaps. He tends to place his warriors in a mean cover, and the Zoanthrope has a terrible inv. save..
Couple of base questions:
- He infiltrates at least 1 Brood of Genestealers. When he deploys them (usually turn 3), they're usually around 15 inch away from the nearest Marine squad. Is he allowed to place them in Line of Sight of any of my marine squads?
- If I assault one of his squads with my marines, does he get first strike? (all his units have higher Initiative.. I thought, maybe assaulting changes the values)
- He instakilled my dreadnaught TWICE with his Zoanthrope, is there ANY way to counter this?
- What is the use of using a transport vehicle? I'm trying to keep my distance D:
- His Carnifex hits instant death on my terminators.. one killed 4 terminators in a single round of combat. Termi's have a 5+ inv. save but.. instakill by a Carnifex? D:
- .....Can my Chapter Master fire a gun? He has a 2-handed relic blade.. So I thought he couldn't shoot.. is that correct?
Units I have not deployed:
- 1x Scout Squad (5 units /w snipers)
- 1x Sgt. Telion (I know he's Ultramarines, but I don't care ;P)
- 1x Predator Tank
- 1x Razorback Transport
- Around 15 additional tactical marines
Reason I'm not using my snipers, is because they're simply not working Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks for advice so far guys I'm really grateful.
Flamers:Well the range aint that bad!I dont know in what table you play but in the small ones you kind of fire it at least a couple of times.And you place the template right you can fry many models in horde armies.You cant run from the nids assault any way they have fleet and were you will go?
Vehicles:Wrong they can move and fire,just not all of their inches.
Too many:Thats why you use template weapons.Try changing that las cannon to a missile launcher or plasma cannon.I am fond of heavy bolters but missiles do better against nids.
Questions:1)Yes he can.
2)If he has initiative yes,but you gain one attack and he losses one(the one he would gain if he charged you)
3)Kill the zoanthrope?
4)I cant remember the stats but if he has double streingth against their toughness yes...thats why its good too use powerfists yourself,they douple marine strength.You get to roll that inv even if he can instakill you.
5)Yes he can if have one.Just dont fire it on the round you plan to assault.
Snipers dont work because they are many.Throw another five and telion in there.Arm one with heavy bolter and use Telions ability with him when he rires the hellfire round.Lots of fun!Plus nine sniper rifles---->more chance for rending!
Predator tank:Way better than a 5 man tactical squad.Arm it with the autocannon/heavy bolters and gun them down.
Edit:If you can lightning claw the termies and get a charge.
Praise be to the Emperor!!