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***Should this post be in the "Army Lists" section???***
Hello, every time I play against my friend, I always win. And I just dont win, I nearly wipe out his whole army by the end of turn 4 or 5, with anywhere around 60-90% of my army still in tact.
We usually play 1000, 1500, or 2000 pt games, rolling randomly for the scenario and set-up.
I play a pure Khorne list; 24-32 Berserkers in Rhinos, 4-8 Terminators, Daemon Prince (Mark of Khorne, wings), Chaos Lord or Kharne, Defiler, Land Raider, Predator. So my tactics are simple, get into assault.
He plays vanilla Space Marines, and he has the following (going from memory);
about 30-40 Space Marines (5 or 6 Heavy Bolters, 1 or 2 Rocket Launchers, 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Lascannon, a few flamers and meltaguns), all of his Sergeants have Power Fists I think
1 Land Raider Crusader
1 Razorback (w/ Heavy Bolter)
about 15 Terminators (1 cyclone missile)
5 Jump-pack Assault SMs (plasma pistol, power fist)
5 Scouts (4 w/ sniper rifles, 1 w/ rocket launcher).
has several HQs (Chaplains, Librarians, Captains, Special Characters, etc...)
3 Dreadnaughts (1 w/ Assault Cannon, 1 w/ Mult-Melta, 1 Venerable w/... im not sure)
I pretty much just "skip" my shooting phase every round, giving him his time to shine. But he just does not do any significant damage to me in the shooting rounds, and once i start assaulting his army, the game is pretty much over for him. I try to genuinely help him after each game with what he could have done differently, but to be honest, Im not really sure what he could have done to prevent his defeat.
That is where you come in, I would appreciate some input on what type of lists he could build with the units he has (or any units he should get), and possibly some brief tactical ideas on how to use them. I would really like him to start winning some games.
I heard him say he needs more assault guys, but I do not think he will ever be able to compete with me in the assault phase (I love my army!!!), no matter what he does.
Let me know if you need more information on his or my armies, play styles, etc..
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Polygot81; March 6th, 2011 at 18:15.
A few things that will help him.
-AP3 or less is your friend, so is having a rhino for all your squads just to give them a little extra shielding.
-Swap all those Heavy Bolters for Missile Launchers or Multi-Meltas. Heavy bolters are not that great (have their uses but not against CSM at least in my experiences).
-Swap the HB on the razorback for Las/plas or TL las.
-Don't know enough about Whirlwinds to help there.
-I don't take terminators in under 1500 points... just personal preference and even at 1500 it's a maybe.
-Don't take the scouts.
-Beef up the assault squad and use it for counter-charge.
-For HQ's I've used a captain with a relic blade and combi-melta to great effect (especially with Jump pack recently). If he prefers to gunline it then a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer or a Librarian might be a better choice.
-I love Dreadnoughts personally... of all flavors. He may want to drop pod them in though that would put them in more favorable positions early on.
As for stuff to look into, I would recommend more Rhinos (Razorback kits), maybe a Vindicator or 2, a Predator perhaps.
Hope that helps him out!
If I were playing your pure Khorne army with his vanilla Marines, I would be sitting as far back as possible and just let you come to me. The principle would be the same as for any fast-moving army: remove your transports to force you to walk, kick your Predator/Defiler so as they couldn't shoot (or preferably remove the nasty guns) and have my vehicles placed so that they formed a wall in front of part of my lines, forcing you to go round them and thereby slow you down.
Deployment: two castles, creating a cross-fire and also hopefully splitting your forces.
Movement: nothing with Heavy weapons would move, and resist the temptation to move forward to take on your guys in CC as I will lose handsomely.
Shooting-wise: take down what could hurt me first, then pick a unit and destroy it, rinse and repeat.
Assault-wise: only if necessary and only where I could guarantee at least a draw.
Main problem for me would be taking down that Winged Daemon Prince before he got to my lines, so shooting with high-strength low AP would be useful. However, it would also be important not to get fixated on killing him and forget the "priority targeting" mentioned before: what can hurt me, what's fast, stop the transports.
I would also make sure that I wasn't loading up with Special Characters, or overloading the ICs with unnecessary wargear. A good study of the Codex should determine which ICs will give the best benefits for the least expenditure on points, and I would be seriously reconsidering power weapons instead of powerfists for my sergeants, as I would prefer not to be handicapped by the lowering of my Initiative rating.
"Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"
1. Unless it comes standard on a vehicle, heavy bolters seem useless in the current edition. Missile launchers, plasma cannons, and lascannons are the way to go for squads.
2. Meltaguns, meltaguns, meltaguns! Whether in a transport or on foot, they're a "must" in my opinion.
3. Give the sergeants power weapons, unless you have something in mind for his squad.
4. A whirlwind won't do much against your khorne list.
5. How are his termies equipped? I'd throw in some combi~meltas/plamsas, and a few chainfists.
6. He needs to build up his assault squad, as the 5man squad is rather useless. I rather use a power weapon than a powerfist.
7. The scouts are good, but I'd add more models. Will do wonders, as per my opinion.
8. A librarian would mess around with a khorne list, and attach a chaplain to his assault squad for some extra "bite".
9. His dreads aren't all that bad. Hopefully he switched out the storm bolter for the heavy flamer?
10. The razorback is fine, though many favor giving it TLed lascannons. It depends on your points and what role you wish it to have.
Hope this helps
Have him him run some of his regular marines as Sternguard next game - they won't do much against the terminators, but their Special Ammunition should chew up just about every other unit you've got.
Thanks for the quick responses guys!
One of my suggestions to him was the "two castle" idea as well Eiglepulper. I will try to re-enforce this idea to him and make him try it.
I will also mention getting more "anti-tank" weaponry (ie: missile launchers, lascannons, meltaguns). *LeapingLizard76
I like the idea of Sternguard. I'll get him to proxy them next game. *Watchwood.
My friend pretty much always uses a captain (with no real role in mind). I will suggest the use of a librarian next time.*40kfanatic
Again, thanks for all of the input, keep the ideas coming.
If it would help, I could try and remember some of our recent games, and give a brief battle report of them. Let me know.
It seems that your friend is lacking hugely in the Heavy Support against you. Something which definately should not be overlooked EVER in a space marine army especially when having a game against Chaos.
I am not one to tailor lists and prefer to played balanced however, for the sake of helping crush the traitor scum I have a few tips which may help him give you a run for your money.
1) Heavy Support: Your friend needs to get his hand on some. At the moment he has few to pick from. I personally am a great defender of the tri-heavy support tactic. in laymans: using 3 of any one type of HS. for example, 3 vindictors or 3 predators.
against chaos marines, especially a khorne army. I would use vindicators... and heres why:
Normal tactical squad with lascannon pops the rhino. 10 khorne bezerkers fall out. ordinance pie plate the bezerkers.
It's a crude tactic but works very well.
if not vindicators and your friend would prefer not to proxy then maybe using a couple devastator squads. loading them out with 2 lascannons and 2 plasma cannons. This will allow for destruction of rhinos and the death of the marines inside next turn etc.
2) Sergeants should ALWAYS have Power Fists. Special weapons generally should be meltagun but it may be in his interest to maybe use ONLY plasma. Heres my reasoning: To hit a tank with a meltagun with you require to be within 12" of the tank. you are then actually within charge range from the zerkers ergo... you don't want to be that close also theres no point in destroying that rhino since its done it's duty and got the zerkers within range to charge (unless your playing KP's). Therefore! using the plasma will allow you to kill potentially 2 marines outright. (plus its cheaper freeing up more points elsewhere)
3) If he is going to run Assault marines anything less than 8 is generally a bit silly. The squad requires staying power and it severally lacks staying power with only 5 guys. Adding a HQ here would dramatically add to the bite of the unit: i'd suggest a Chaplain for the first round of combat re-roll pain or a Librarian for the nemesis force weapon to hunt chaos lords/daemon princes.
4) No terminators in <2000pts. Theres no points for them. Or need. Focus particularly on the tactical marines. They will win him the game easily without the need of the terminators. as Leapinglizard87 well knows this is why:
The problem with space marines now, is that individual units really dont make that much of an impact anymore. In lehmaans terms theres no definative unit that you scream out "KEEP THAT AWAY FROM MY ARMY". Unfortunately other marine armies do ¬_¬. A good way of working around this is bolstering units with what I like to call support units.
so for example:
Unit vs opponent = no psychological implication
command squad with captain vs opponent = no psychological implication
but what i propose is:
Unit + support units vs opponent = psychological and tactical implications
command squad with captain + (vanguard squad) or (assault squad) = etc....
So the units I like to use as support units are as follows:
Vanguard squads: 2 power weapons, 2 storm shields, 2 power fists, - 8 man squad (this squad is pricey but led by a chaplain will swat most units out of the way with help from a normal tactical squad)
Assault squads: 10 man squad with power fist and 2 "assault" weapons. 2 flamers can be quite potent.
Sternguard: (I haven't used these thus far but I have heard good things)
5) Use of Dreadnaughts has been entirely overhyped by the blood angel population of this forum and others! It's a viable strategy for them but not for vanilla marines. Generally the two dreadnaughts I use are equipped with lascannon/missile launcher as firebase/marine defenders as a direct example of the previous sentiment.
so for example:
Dreads stay with vanilla tacticals to defend from larger foes.
Tacticals help "combat support" units with potentially difficult to conquer units (thus: dreadnaughts follow up)
6) In terms of taking on you as a player its very simple:
- Down the rhinos then vindicator the bezerkers dead.
- allow the land raider up the board it to get within melta range/power fist.
- Swallow the terminators with tactical marines and support units after the initial barrage from the static firing line.
- Daemon Prince - they're not that great in combat and its easy to kill them: sergeants with PW or PF. or the easier way: Librarian.
- Chaos Lord - again if he's with the terminators throwing tactical squads at him/them will eventually pull them down.
Overall the only reason that I can see as to why he isn't hammering you into the floor every game is because he lacks Heavy Support. Something which you have an abundance.
just a few ideas anyway
My homage to my time spent at Libararium Online:
More Heavy Support, more anti-AT, check! *Brother Tiberius
More AP2/3 weaponry, check! *Realitycheque
Grrr.... lost my nice long post. Here is the shorthand verion. I have a friend who runs a CSM list extremely similar to that. I also have a friend who is new to the hobby and his all comers list which I helped him write does pretty well against it. I'm basing these suggestions off of those two lists.
Space marines excel at coordination. Everything must have it role in the battle field. here is a sample ~2000pt list.
Librarian, nullzone, avenger. His role is to really hurt those invuln saves on your DP and your termies. And Avenger is a last resort of those bezerkers get too close for comfort. He hsould ride around in the Razorback.
2 x Venerable Dreads in Pods with MMs and HFs. Alpha Strike inbetween your respective armies targeting armor, likely drawing the attention of your DP, generally wrecking shop and being annoyingly difficult to kill.
3 x 10 tacticals with MLs/LCs, meltaguns, and fisted Sgs. One gets a TLLC Razorback, the other gets a pod. Combat Squad keeping the Heavy weapons back for support and holding objectives. Keep one unit in a pod for late game objective grabbing if need be.
Devs with 4x MLs. Long range support, will make short work of a DP if he gets nullzone off.
Vindicator. When those long range tacticals and devs pop those rhinos, the vindicator can really do a number on those bunched up CSMs.
TH/SS termies in a crusader(with MM). General close range fire support in the Crusader and counter assault.
That should be about 2k, don't have time to figure it out after losing my first post.
This marine army is cohesive as a force. Space marines excel at working together.