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    kinkeh secks pl0x?! Brother Tiberius's Avatar
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    Space Marines: Pick of the bunch or lacking the punch?

    Hey guys! Well since I have been sitting around for the past 5 minutes to see if I could contribute to a discussion here on the illustrious space marine forum and then thought... Why don't I start a thread...

    So, as many of you know I have been playing marines for a very long time. They were my first army when I started the hobby a long 10 years ago. Over this time I think I have learnt a hell of a lot about the emperors finest and I thought what better way to contribute to the community by making a thread discussing the good the bad and the ugly aspects of our army.

    Just as a side note:- I will be leaving out things I feel I don't have enough knowledge on to correctly and comprehensibly discuss.

    Note: This is all my opinion generated from play testing and messing around with various lists! Please share your opinions so we can make this community the best is can possibly be!


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    Contents:
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    1) Headquarters – Somewhat lacking Or secretly powerful?
    1.1 Chapter Masters and Captains
    1.2 Command Squads
    1.3 Chaplain
    1.4 Librarian

    2) Troops – Tactical Scouts or Tactic-less Slouch?
    2.1 Tactical Squads – Why would you ever take scouts?
    2.2 Scouts – Here is why you should take scouts...
    2.3 Rhinos – obsolete in the razorbacks world?
    2.4 Razorbacks – the new rhino?

    3) Elites – Living in a terminators world
    3.1 Terminators – The good, the bad and the point hungry.
    3.2 Sternguard – A Crimson Fists best friend
    3.3 Dreadnaughts – Mobile Death Machines or Mobile duds.
    3.4 Legion of the Damned – Cool models but worth the points?

    4) Fast Attack – So much choice so few force organisation slots.
    4.1 Assault Marines – why the hell not?
    4.2 Veteran Vanguard Squad – Yes please!
    4.3 Land Speeders – The new annoying tactic from your friendly neighbourhood marine player
    4.4 Bike squads – viable in a the new style marine army?

    5) Heavy Support – Bring out the Big Guns
    5.1 Devastator squads – are they really that devastating?
    5.2 Land Raiders – Point sink or rolling behemoth?
    5.3 Vindicators – Controlling the board since before I can remember
    5.4 Predators – Sitting by the tactical marines making enemy armour think twice before I was born
    5.5 Whirlwind – being utterly useless since forever.

    6) Space Marine Tactics
    6.1 What is a Firebase?
    6.2 How do we make an effective Firebase?
    6.3 How do we defend the Firebase?
    6.4 How do we counter attack enemy opprossers?
    6.5 When do we take the battle to them?

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    1) Headquarters – Somewhat lacking? Or secretly powerful?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The main problem it seems with this latest codex compared to the previous in the context of our HQ slots seems that nothing really jumps out as a strong combat monster.

    Librarians have been slammed back into support role rather than their prior combat potential in previous codex's, whereas Chaplains have taken a nerf statwise.

    This leaves us with the captain and chapter master which certainly are the most versatile in the equipment department, however they lack something which it had previously... the ability to have a psychological effect on your opponent something which chaplains and librarians still have.

    So what do we do?
    Well funnily enough this isn't the end of the world because it allows us to tailor your HQ to your army and here is how I think about it:

    1.1 Chapter Master and Captain:
    Chapter Master:- don't ever take one. The points are not worth the state increase and orbital bombardment.

    Captain:
    The most customisable HQ available to the marine army:-

    Pro's
    Completely Customisable for every eventuality
    Cheap but very effective
    Taubeast points out that the captain also has the ability, once riding a bike, to allow bike squads with five members or more to become troops. This can help with those people wishing to create a highly maneuverable army that seeks to get into combat as soon as possible and also dominate the board. More will be disccused about bike squads however, in the Fast Attack section!

    Con's
    Not very strong as an individual

    It's useful because of:- Customisable ability
    The customisable ability of the Captain allows us to make him easily slot into the marine army. Several factors however must be taken into account when thinking about using a captain:-
    How do you play? :- And how do you intend to dominate the board?

    Static shooting army:- Using a captain in this instance would be beneficial for the static firebase as a defensive buffer between the tactical marines and the inevitable gribblies that will hit your lines. In this Instance I tend to run two cheap captains! One with a power weapon/storm shield/jump pack and one with a power fist/storm shield/jump pack this will allow for quick movement and also an ability to take on monstrous creatures whilst keeping the tactical marines an added punch.

    Mech Firebase Army:- Using a captain in this instance would be dependant on the type of enemy you are facing:
    Horde: Use a captain with power weapon/artificer armour since the Storm shield is not necessary.

    Equipment for Captains:
    Power Weapon is a must! Never leave without one!
    Power Fists are a big NO unless you intend to run two in conjunction with each other
    Artificer armour isn't necessary but helps when playing heavy infantry armies (heavy infantry in the terms of chaos marines)
    Storm shield is helpful against heavy infantry armies but not necessary for anything less in terms of points

    1.2 Command Squads
    Couple this with a command squad with a myriad of power weapons and fists for every eventuality. In any eventuality I have found the following command squad VERY good! And has made back it's points every game:

    Command Squad:
    two Power weapons
    two power fists
    four Storm shields
    Apothecary
    Razorback

    Another Alternative, particularly when running a captain on a bike is to run a bike command squad which seems to be in hot discussion on the forums of late (contributed by SimSnow)

    Here is an example of such a command squad:

    Command Squad
    four storm shields
    four power fists
    four meltaguns
    Space Marine Bikes
    As written by Ravendove in:
    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...bit-pants.html
    8th Comment.

    The massive problem with this squad is that it costs so much. 440pts to be exact. It is an all or nothing squad in anything under 2000pts and thus. In my eyes a MASSIVE point sink that could be spend elsewhere and alot more sensibly. A sort of all eggs in one basket approach to 40k something i intend to keep far away from.

    Pros:
    Versatile: Command squads are incredibly versatile equipment wise and can fill a large amount of roles throughout the army.
    Mobile: The ability to be on bikes, is highly beneficial!
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.

    Cons:
    Can become expensive very quickly. and thus a huge point sink

    1.3 Chaplain
    this HQ is good as an assault mitigation unit.

    Pros:
    Cheap points-wise
    Combat monster
    Easily customisable through use of a jump pack
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.

    Cons:
    None as far as I'm concerned.

    It's useful because:- It's cheap and strong.
    The chaplain is our GO TO HQ when all things fail. The chaplain is officially a combat monster for cheap points. For 100pts you get a 3+/4+ save, a Power weapon and the ability to re-roll all failed hits in the first round of combat!

    Equipment
    With the addition of a jump pack the chaplain quickly becomes a force to be reckoned with. For us marine players easily the the best HQ choice.

    1.4 Librarians:
    this HQ is brilliant for a static marine army and/or a balanced marine army here is why:-

    Pro's
    With the force weapon the Librarian is still a formidable opponent in combat.
    Coupled with a static marine army this HQ can take down larger enemies because inevitably your static force will have taken wounds off of whatever it heading towards you. For example, a rampaging daemon prince.
    Psychic Powers are very good!
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.
    Broadsword also addsersonally, I tend to have a libby in my force not only for its powers, but also for its psychic hood. You have a decent shot at stopping the enemy psyker using his power instead of just standing around and submitting to it. It is one of the major benefits of a libby in my opinion.

    Con's
    Expensive compared to other HQ choices
    If it dies then its a particularly large blow to your army.
    Not very strong as an individual.

    It's useful because of:- Psychic Powers.
    The myriad of psychic powers the Librarian has can equip him for several eventualities to compensate for a lack of X (X being lack of fire support or multiple wound mitigation, ) here are some ideas for you to consider:
    Fire Support: The Avenger and Smite (I never use Vortex of Doom for its ability to backfire and simply because You should have enough armour mitigation in your army anyway) This librarian sits with the firebase and generally is very good at dealing with infantry and heavy infantry.
    Multiple Wound: Null Zone, Might of the Ancients and Force Dome (A choice of these however the first two are my preference) Using a small 5 man combat squad keeping the librarian safe will allow for this potential combat monster to take down most larger creatures with some ease. However, he is still fragile without an Invulnerable Save.

    Equipment:
    The essential piece of equipment for a Librarian is a Storm Shield. This is because without an Invulnerable Save the Librarian is at a sever disadvantage compared to other HQ's in our own army and others. As well as this I would also definitely upgrade to epistolary in order to use both psychic powers in the same turn making the librarian considerably more effective.

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    2) Troops – Tactical Scouts or Tactic-less Slouch?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We have been given a tactic enhancement in terms of combat squads in our current codex. Albeit nowhere near as strong as running 5 man squads with a heavy weapon we are still able to be incredibly flexible.

    2.1 Tactical Squads – Why would you ever take scouts?
    Tactical squads, the staple of our army. Ever changing from composition to traits and now to combat squads! Now I'm not going to tell you the pros and cons of something we all use to full effect dependant on a daily basis however, I will discuss my set up and how its beneficial to the army I play.

    I run my tactical squads like so:
    10 man Tactical squad
    Sergeant: Power Fist, combi-melta, meltagun and “heavy weapon” (in 3000pts I run 6 10 man tactical squads with: 2 lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Cannons) in a Rhino!

    Four of these squads are combat squaded leaving the 2 lascannon squads as firebase. The four combat squads will run up with the 2 decoy rhinos and set up a secondary firebase in the centre of the board. Coupled with secondary back up units which will be discussed in further detail in the Tactics Section.

    2.2 Scout squad – Here is why you should take scouts...
    scouts have become just as versatile as our tactical marines with the ability to be able to take heavy weapons and ride in their own transports scouts have become something they should of always been . a distraction from other more powerful units! The potential of a fie man scout squad in a storm taking a table quarter in the last turn is generally too much of a potential game winner to be ignored and often games have been won by me by using this to my advantage.

    Ignore them and you can a table quarter.
    Target them and you spend valuable time targetting them.
    A cache twenty-two which falls completely into our hands!

    I won't however attempt to tell you how to equip these magnificent cheap versatile units but will discuss tactics in the tactics section.

    2.3 Rhinos – obsolete in the razorbacks world?
    Are rhinos as good as razorbacks? In terms of their duty yes! But in terms of the firepower? No? So in the razorbacks world what is the use of the rhino?
    Rhinos are cheaper and carry more marines and thus can be used very well in terms of tactics which will be discussed later in the tactics section:

    As far as im concerned I love rhinos!
    See Tactics.

    2.4 Razorback – the new rhino?
    The diversity a razorback can bring to the marine army is paramount to its new adoption as the transport of choice to marines along with our ability to combat squad it seems like it would be stupid not to right?

    Well as far as i'm aware the TL/LC or PG/LC seem to be the favourites among our little community due to there diverse nature. As well as this the Heavy Bolter should not be overlooked – not simple because it is the cheapest option but because it is also quite a strong contender against those horde armies.

    See tactics for more information on razorbacks.

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    3) Elites – Living in a terminators world.
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    In a world dominated by kids playing terminators is their any place for anything other than these formidable foes? I think so, in fact I think terminators are a waste of points and generally uninteresting and completely boring to play against compared to the myriad of other potentially more interesting units we have at our disposal in the space marine codex.

    3.1 Terminators – The good, the bad and the point hungry.
    Terminators seem to be the choice of all as of late in the elite sections however, as far as i'm concerned there way to expensive and often ride to combat in some kind of overpriced land raider! Why? Its completely unnecessary and cost way to much point wise! So here is a break down of how I run terminators.

    Conditions: >2000pt games.
    As far as I am concerned, and as im sure you can tell, I think Terminators are way too overpriced and don't fulfil any of the immediate problems we as an army are ever faced. So when I use them I use them in games that are greater than 2000pts.

    Pros
    PF/SB:-
    Combat prolific with the ability to take down mech
    Good Armour Save

    TH/SS and LC:-
    Combat prolific
    Brilliant Armour saves
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.

    Cons:
    Too expensive to make them worthwhile in games under 2000pts
    Require a Land Raider to get from A to Z.
    Deep Striking is very dangerous for a unit that costs so much.

    Is useful because:
    Taking on other heavy infantry which may come hurtling towards your line. Other than that this unit does what a myriad of others can do for a fraction of the cost.

    Power Fist (standard terminator squad) additional Equipment:
    Equipment:
    Broadsword adds: I didn't find a mention regarding the Cyclone missile launcher, Heavy Flamer nor the assault cannon in your terminator entry. Both have there place and they increase the effectiveness of a normal terminator squad greatly. They are heavy weapons, but the terminators can fire these on the move due to their special rule. I rarely use the heavy flamer on the terminators because of its limited range, but when deepstriking, I prefer the assault cannon. Since you can't move when you just deployed, the assault cannon can be deadly against infantry and even armoured targets because or rending. With the Cyclone missile launcher I tend to walk my terminators in to get the maximum number of shots out of them.
    Brother Tiberius: I just completely forgot :/ sorry guys

    3.2 Sternguard – A Crimson Fists best friend
    Sternguard are quite interesting in the terms of using pedro kantor as your HQ. As well as various other named HQ's Pedro seems to be the choice of a few along with Vulcan. Although I havent ever used them and thus not discussed them in this thread this doesn't mean they don't have their uses.

    So it seems that Sternguard are easily customisable to various opponents that they will come up against using their ammunition. Coupled with Pedro Kantor in HQ it makes these versatile elites a scoring unit which adds to the brilliance of this unit.

    Pros
    Versatile – various ammunition for different situations
    Cheap Compared to Terminators
    Scoring unit when coupled with Pedro Kantor

    Cons
    No staying power.
    Expensive compared to other units such as dreadnaughts.

    Equipment:
    much like our tactical marines, sternguard have the ability to be incredibly versatile and can fit a myriad of roles within our armies. The following loadouts are how I run my sternguard:

    6 Sternguard
    Sergeant: Power Fist,
    5 meltaguns
    Razorback: LC/PG

    or alternativly the same as above but 5 plasma guns and the sergeant swaps the Fist for a normal power weapon.
    This unit can hunt tanks or hunt Heavy Infantry to great effect and thus is incredibly equipped for these specific roles!

    Another alternative is to run this unit cheap making use of the ammunition: so for example:

    6 Sternguard: Power Fist
    5 combi-melta
    Razorback: LC/PG

    or alternativly the same as the above using combi-plasma. This way you can still make use of the “special ammunition” which make this unit truly special.

    Racifi adds this:
    I field them in my army every time i play 1500 or more.
    A unit of 10 with 6 combi meltas and 4 combi flamers are deadly and so worth the 300 points. Put them in a drop pod for first turn assult. They come down and then combat squad.

    If they have tanks you put 3 combi meltas and 2 combi flamers in each - if they only have 1 tank then you put 5 combi meltas on that and 4 combi flamers + a Combi melta on the troops. Basically this allows you to take out 2 key things of your enemy in turn 1.

    I sometimes run a librarian with them for the 3rd hit on turn 1 but i am moving away from this as it becomes to expensive.

    But the 10 sterns by themselves should die the turn after they arrive (i tend to have just 1 or so when it comes to my turn. But thats the point. I have taken out or badly hurt/damaged their 2 most scary things and had a turn when the rest of my army wasn't touched.


    Guthbrand added:
    Sternguard and Legion of the Damned are among the few infantry that can take Heavy Flamers in a space marine army. Most power armored units can take a flamer at best.


    3.3 Dreadnaughts – Mobile Death Machines or Mobile duds.
    Dreadnaughts have always had a special place in my heart. The ability to jump on units via drop pod, or assist the firebase from your own board edge, dreadnaughts have a versatility that many armies lack and which we should take advantage of.

    Pros
    Armour Value makes this a target regardless of Heavy Support options on the field which means less shooting at your rhinos/razorbacks
    Versatile:- the ability to customise the dreadnaught makes it a formidable foe indeed! For combat or Firebase support the dread has many loadouts for every eventuality and can slot into EVERY list in some way or another.
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.

    Cons
    Armour Value: Although it has an armour value it doesnt necessarily make it a good one. With such low values a dreadnaught can be blown quite easily.

    Equipment
    I will now discuss the types of dreadnaught available to us:

    Venerable: In terms of dreadnaught I don't really understand the extra 60points we pay for this particular ability. Albeit a good ability is it really worth the extra points? In terms of keeping our army cheap and thus get more for our “money”. The extra WS and BS is albeit a massive bonus however, for me, The Venerable dreadnaught has no place in my army lists in anything under 2000pts.

    Ironclad: Move through Cover is a brilliant addition to the dreadnaught for a easly 30 points and thus makes the Ironclad, with its seismic hammer, a tank hunting monster with the ability to walk through cover without penalty. Whats not to like? Add a drop-pod and you have something truly terrifying.

    Multi-Melta: The equipment of choice. Cheap. Kills tanks VERY easily.

    Assault Cannon: Good against those horde armies but also effective against normal troops.

    Heavy Bolter: Good against horde armies but not effective against other armies.

    Lascannon: Effective against Tanks at Long range. The Firebase dreadnaught weapon of choice

    Autocannon: The dual autocannon dreadnaught seems to be becoming increasingley popular of late due to its ability to take on armour and also churn out four shots a turn at strength 7. This dreadnaught is then, a cheaper version of the firbase dreadnaught I take in my army.

    Plasma Cannon: Particularly good against horde armies due to the blast template and coupled with an AP2 is also good at taking on heavy infantry such as Chaos marines. An excellent addition to a dreadnaught for such a cheap points cost.

    Missile Launcher: The definitive extra to a dreadnaught that throws up large debate everytime it is discussed! Is the lose of the CCDW worth it for the missile launcher? In my eyes yes, but this is due to my play style. To others, who use the dreadnaught as a Close quarters unit then I am certain they will disregard this as rediculous. However, the missile launcher not only adds range to the dreadnaught but also adds an extra shot from the dreadnaught which is otherwise doing nothing with it's dangling arm.

    Here are various loadouts which may get your creative juices running:

    Dreadnaught: Missile Launcher, Lascannon: This firebase dreadnaught stays back with the tactical marines in order to keep them safe from any combat monsters that may have been able to reach them as well as offering long range support to the marines moving to the centre of the board. This tactic (my tactic) will be discussed further in the tactics section later on.

    Dreadnaught: Multi-Melta, Drop Pod: Cheap and highly effective. Dropping dreadnaughts seems to have become a new tactic. One which I am not very fond of however, I do understand its tactical advanatage and also it annoyance. Having a dread drop-pod next to a crucial tank and popping it is the most irritating thing in the world and can cause you (me, anyone) to make rash decisions.

    3.4 Legion of the Damned – Cool models but worth the points?
    When the legion models were released it was clear to see that they looked awesome and I was happy because although we do have some awesome sculpts we somewhat lack those spectacular models from which we can base an army on. I must say that I was very tempted to do a marine army using the legion models. But, however, money prohibited this. I terms of gameplay I see very few armies using these within lists, however, this doesn't mean that they don't have their uses which will be discussed below:

    Pros
    Versatility: The ability to have various equipment means that the Legion are able to be customized for various tasks.
    Unyielding spectres: Invulnerable 3+ armour save? Yes please

    Cons
    Aid Unlooked for: As far as i'm concerned deep striking is not worth the hassle it can cause. With potentially going off the board and landing on terrain (loosing space to to deepstrike) regardless of the ability to re-roll it is still a risk I am not willing to take because of the next Con.

    Cost: Points wise these really don't compare to other possible selections in the Elite section.

    Slow and Purposeful: I assume this is a way of allowing the unyeilding spectres by attempting to balance the abilities. However, the ability to move 6” is one of the main things that balances the game and is a stark contrast to Fantasy (or Warhammer if you prefer). Anything that puts a unit on the backfoot must have considerable advantages eg. Obliterators. Something of which the legion do not have.

    However, Guthbrand adds: one "pro" about Legion of the Damn having "slow and purposeful:" it makes them relentless, so they can still shoot that heavy weapon after moving.
    Equipment:
    Much like all normal marines there is a myriad of equipment available to the Legion which is available to all marines. And thus much like tactical squads, sternguard and others the variety of loadouts available to you are tremendous. Choose a task for the legion and equip them accordingly.

    For example:
    Anti-tank: Meltagun, Multi-Melta
    Anti-Heavy Infantry: Plasma Gun

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    4) Fast Attack – So much choice so few force organisation slots.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Mech based meta-game has stopped people wanting to use the majority of the Fast attack section of the vanilla marine codex. Unfortunately, I can't blame them however, this is probably because much like myself, I thought very linear in my approaches to the game! The Fast Attack section can win and lose you games and this will be discussed in greater detail in the tactics.

    4.1 Assault Marines – why the hell not?
    Assault marines have been a staple part of my list for 10 years and I enjoy any game that I can warrant fielding them. However, there in lies the problem. In the current mech based meta game fielding a unit of assault marines seems a bit foolish. Well, I aim to combat this stigmatisation in the Tactics section later.

    Pros
    Jump Infantry: The ability to move 12” and keep up with mobile LOS breakers (Rhinos) is very beneficial
    Special Weapons: The ability to field two flamers in a ten man squad is insanely brilliant. Especially when we consider that taking anything less than the maximum 10 marines in an assault squad is not very clever.
    Remove Jump packs: Removing jump packs allows you to gain a dedicated transport for free.
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.

    Cons
    Lack of delivery system with jump packs: means that this unit will be targeted. But is this necessarily a bad thing? Attention away from the rhinos/razorbacks? This will be discussed further in Tactics.
    Lack of versatility: Only a choice between flamers and plasma pistols.

    Equipment:
    The ability to be able to take two assault weapons in the squad is highly beneficial and adds punch to the squad that is requires.
    As well as this there is also the versatility the sergeant himself can bring to the squad.

    4.2 Veteran Vanguard Squad – Yes please!
    Veteran Vanguard squads are interesting due to there ability to be loaded with a myriad of power weapons (which as far as i'm concerned is always a good thing) However, they are fragile, only wearing power armour, so the squad can often become expensive.

    Pros
    Jump Infantry: The ability to move 12” and keep up with mobile LOS breakers (Rhinos) is very beneficial
    Special Weapons: The ability to field two flamers in a ten man squad is insanely brilliant. Especially when we consider that taking anything less than the maximum 10 marines in an assault squad is not very clever.
    Remove Jump packs: Removing jump packs allows you to gain a dedicated transport for free.
    Power Weapons: POWER WEAPONS GALORE!!! being able to give EVERY member of the squad a power weapon is amazing.
    Psychological effect: Can have a psychological effect on the enemy and cause them to change tactics in order to combat the threat they cause.

    Cons
    Lack of delivery system with jump packs: means that this unit will be targeted. But is this necessarily a bad thing? Attention away from the rhinos/razorbacks? This will be discussed further in Tactics.
    Can be become expensive very quickly.

    Equipment:
    Power weapons, Power Fists, the list is endless and not any of it bad! This squad however, can become very expensive but can also be fielded in various ways.

    For example
    6 Vanguard Veterans
    2 power fists
    2 power weapons
    4 storm shield
    1 relic blade
    razorback

    The alternative drops the razorback for the jump packs. These squads are in the 300point range and thus expensive however they are incredibly scary due to the 3++ save. Something of which little other marines in power armour can do.

    4.3 Land Speeders – The new annoying tactic from your friendly neighbourhood marine player
    Marine players have become completely swayed by the land speed where previously it was overlooked, now, a unit of 3 land speeders really can irritate people to no end. Something of which I have been on the receiving end countless times. So lets discuss the newest “tactic” available to us:

    Pros
    Versatile: the ability to customise the loadout of the land speeder allows the squad to be tooled for any and every eventuality. Particular favourites are cheap anti-tank squads in the form of multi-melta's
    Fast: The ability to move and gain an invulnerable save is highly beneficial to these weakily armoured skimmers. Something of which can get them into apt positions for their particular roles within the list.

    Cons
    Armour Value: Although it has an armour value it doesnt necessarily make it a good thing. Something of which the land speeder severley lacks.
    Skimmer: The ability to down these vehicles on the role of an immobilisation means that it is even easier to destroy these vehicles.

    Equipment:
    Multi-Melta: The equipment of choice. Cheap. Kills tanks VERY easily. The ability to run two means that the squad becomes a tank killing machine however the squad then becomes very pricey.

    Assault Cannon: Good against those horde armies but also effective against normal troops.

    Heavy Bolter: Good against horde armies but not effective against other armies.

    Heavy Flamer: Good against Horde armies and can be very effective but not effective against many armies. The ability to run two on a land speeder makes this somewhat scary but, again... its only flamers.

    Typhoon Missile Launcher: Good against armour due to krak, and infantry horde armies due to frag! Whats not to like? however it is the most expensive of the upgrades.

    Broadsword adds: I adore land speeders and they are one of the most versatile units in the marine codex IMO. You forgot one of my favourite upgrades though. The Typhoon Missile Launcher. Though being the most costly speeder of all, this unit is deadly against both armoured targets and infantry. You can even fire its frag grenades as defensive weapons, which as a huge bonus. Coupled with the Heavy Bolter, you have a nice harmony between the two weapons. using its mobility, you can fairly easy stay at roughly 36" from the enemy while delivering punishing barages against them. My second favourite build for the Land Speeder is the load out with a Multi Melta and a heavy flamer. This does tend to be a suicide unit when used against armoured targets, but it is very effective and knocking out that big expensive tank with a 70pt speeder is worthwhile. The added Heavy Flamer is perfect for late game objective contesting by flaming the occupants off it.

    4.4 Bike squads – viable in a the new style marine army?
    A lot of talk seems to go on on this forum about the legitamacy of the biker squadrons in the new meta game and their abilities or inabilities to fit into the new style marine army. As far as I am concerned bikes have never interested me, however this does not meen they are ineffective, but rather they don't suit my playstyle something of which most people on this forum seem to forget. Anyway, what follows is a discussion on the use of bike squads.

    Pros
    Versatile: the ability to customise the loadout of the bike squadallows the squad to be tooled for any and every eventuality. Particular favourites are cheap anti-tank squads in the form of multi-melta's. And meltaguns

    Fast: The ability to move and gain an invulnerable save is highly beneficial to these weakily armoured marines. Something of which can get them into apt positions for their particular roles within the list. Coupled with this the ability to get into combat on turn one makes this squad very daunting when faced.

    Selfleader adds: Bikes are also relentless so you can move rapid fire thier bolters and then assault.

    Cons
    Lacks bite in the terms of combat which in turn leads me to believe that first turn combat is foolish.
    Squad can become quickly expensive in order to make is worthwhile.

    Equipment:
    Attack Bike:
    Multi-Melta: The equipment of choice. Cheap. Kills tanks VERY easily. The ability to run two means that the squad becomes a tank killing machine however the squad then becomes very pricey.

    Heavy Bolter: Good against horde armies but not effective against other armies.

    More to come

    Last edited by Brother Tiberius; March 15th, 2011 at 11:44. Reason: Added Broadswords comments!
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    For new or returning players

    I havent played since the end of 2nd edition into 3rd edition 40k and am jumping back into it and am very thankful for threads like this. This is a great thread to people who just want to know a little more about each unit individually and will help those just starting or looking to advance as a player with their space marine army list... look foward to the reading the rest! Thanks a lot Brother Tiberius!

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    Some pretty good stuff here, +rep.
    However, I think you should mention that the captain can make 5+ biker bike squads troops if he takes a bike.
    I'd also bring up some of the cons of the command squad, i.e. takes up a lot of points, becomes a fire magnet when it is more expensive, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taubeast View Post
    Some pretty good stuff here, +rep.
    However, I think you should mention that the captain can make 5+ biker bike squads troops if he takes a bike.
    Truth. As was mentioned in another thread, a command squad of bikers, plasma and storm shields means a lot of dead infantry. I suppose it all falls under the banner of being customizable, but it's nice to kick in a few alternate ideas as far as what you can do.
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    kinkeh secks pl0x?! Brother Tiberius's Avatar
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    Updated: with Elites section.

    @Izreal : Thanks, i'm glad your finding it helpful!

    @SimSnow : I've added in your comments! thanks for contributing! lets help to make this community more about the army and less about trolling and one uping each other.

    @Taubeast : thanks for your contribution as well.
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    Nice edit, this just keeps getting better! Are you going to hit on techmarines?
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    kinkeh secks pl0x?! Brother Tiberius's Avatar
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    I plan to at least tickle all topics. in the sense of at the very least mention them. Those that i feel i am unable to write comprehensively however, will be open to community help which will hopefully strengthen and validate this thread which I am putting my heart and soul into.
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    To help with sternguard i will add this:
    I field them in my army every time i play 1500 or more.
    A unit of 10 with 6 combi meltas and 4 combi flamers are deadly and so worth the 300 points. Put them in a drop pod for first turn assult.
    They come down and then combat squad.
    If they have the tanks you put 3 combi meltas and 2 combi flamers in each - if they only have 1 tank then you put 5 combi meltas on that and 4 combi flamers + a Combi melta on the troops. Basically this allows you to take out 2 key things of your enemy in turn 1.
    Note tank can be MC when fighting nids etc aim at the teveragons etc which are T4.

    You say they die to easily - that is true - I sometimes run a lib with them for the 3rd hit on turn 1 (he is in termi armour with the S10 physic shot and the force dome to protect sterns but i am moving away from this as it becomes to expensive.
    But the 10 sterns by themselves should die the turn after they arrive (i tend to have just 1 or so when it comes to my turn. But thats the point. I have taken out or badly hurt/damaged their 2 most scary things and had a turn when the rest of my army wasn't touched.
    You killed my sterns - i now have my Landraider with termis, Bike squads and 2 vindicator + 2 Razorbacks with the combated assult side of a tactical squad hitting your door step. - basically i am looking at trying different builds now and not include the sterns as they are just too deadly when in a drop pod and i easily win every game even without first turn
    Tau: 6K - W17-D3-L4, Orks: 4K - W9-D0-L2, SM: 7K - W7-D3-L4,CSM: 4K W5-D1-L1, Nids: 3.2K W3-D0-L2
    Apoc games (mixture of armies used): W5-D0-L1

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    kinkeh secks pl0x?! Brother Tiberius's Avatar
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    interesting concept and something i'll have to look at more in depth when i get home (currently in a late night lecture)
    I have a small feeling however that you are unable to combat squad in the middle of a game but rather you have to declare before the game starts? if this is true then this means you have to buy 2 separate drop pods for the sternguard and run two, five man squads.

    in 1500pts youve just had 300 kamikaze? albeit if they do 300pts of damage fair enough. however, in such a low point game (and were talking missions here) you'll lose 2 KPs on turn one. You've killed maybe 1 scary tank? fair enough however, in the mech based metagame is that really an achievement? I think not.
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    LO Zealot Rafici's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Tiberius View Post
    interesting concept and something i'll have to look at more in depth when i get home (currently in a late night lecture)
    I have a small feeling however that you are unable to combat squad in the middle of a game but rather you have to declare before the game starts? if this is true then this means you have to buy 2 separate drop pods for the sternguard and run two, five man squads.

    in 1500pts youve just had 300 kamikaze? albeit if they do 300pts of damage fair enough. however, in such a low point game (and were talking missions here) you'll lose 2 KPs on turn one. You've killed maybe 1 scary tank? fair enough however, in the mech based metagame is that really an achievement? I think not.
    Drop pods are different to everything else.
    You combat squad when the unit hits the ground not before the game.
    I have had kill point games where i have thought about not combat squading them and/or dropping them into a safer area but no Sternguards are there to die which is why i never take kandor even those i field a crimson fist list.
    335 points is a lot in a 1500 point game but 4 out of 5 times they will kill their points back if not more or even if they dont they are worth the slight lose for what they do - aka take out a farseers transport.
    Just remember the stern gueards job is 2 things 50% of it is that first turn kill 2 deadly things - the things that worry me most, which are not always the most expensive things.
    Their second job is to take a turn of fire.
    So i have lost 335 point or 3KP but the enemy would/ could have easily killed that of my normal force but they dont as they have to take out those sternguards.
    Dont focus on the stern's and aim at my other stuff, well the sterns will make you pay next turn, kill of my sterns - well my main army has just got a free turn for the cost of 0 (since the sterns have already earnt their points back)

    Oh and i usually lose 2KP as most times the drop pod survives cos anything which would aim at that instead of the sterns has bigger fish to fry!
    Tau: 6K - W17-D3-L4, Orks: 4K - W9-D0-L2, SM: 7K - W7-D3-L4,CSM: 4K W5-D1-L1, Nids: 3.2K W3-D0-L2
    Apoc games (mixture of armies used): W5-D0-L1

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