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i play CSM, and my buddy plays SM. i've been wondering if his list just doesn't match up well against mine, because when we play he loses way more units than i do...even when the games are close.
my usual list consists of:
tzeentch prince w/warptime and doombolt
4 termies with combi melta, 2 combi plasma, HF, PF
8 bezerkers in a rhino
8 PM in a rhino w/ 2 PG
8 CSM w/a flamer
chaplain led assault squad
10 SM with PC in a rhino
10 SM with MG and MM in a rhino
6 scouts with a HB
9 sternguard with 3 combi melta in a rhino
5 devastators with 4 ML
2 landspeeders with MM and HF
the way we start is that i put my defiler on the far edge of his table, and he puts the devs on his edge. the speeders race to the defiler and generally go down before they can do real damage. he focuses his devs on my oblits, but do to the fact that he gets his 2+ save they maybe take one out the whole game.
he focuses his PC on my rhino with kharn in it, but it doesn't keep if from reaching its destination. the terminators DS next to kharn and then they massacre anything in charge range.
his assault squad goes for the PM's, but they are unable to take them out, and my zerkers eventually join the fray and finish them off. basically once kharn is that deep there is no stopping him.
the scouts haven't proved effective at all, and with his devs going after my oblits that leaves only a PC to deal with all my troops. meanwhile my defiler is still hanging back out of missile range having the whole game to fire at rhinos. if he keeps them close, kharn kills them. if he keeps them back, the defiler pops them. and i didn't even mention the prince. i generally keep him as a support unit to draw fire and combine with who ever is presenting the biggest threat.
the prince's only real threat is the sternguard with their special ammo that wounds on 2+, but if he goes for it i make sure there is another unit (like the termies) to make sure they only get one turn to shoot at him.
on paper it looks like it should be a good match, but the fact is that he can't do much damage before kharn, the DP, and the termies get to CC.
my friend is fairly tired of the scouts, and his assault squad just doesn't pay for itself on the field. what is his list missing?
i think he needs more mech to give me target saturation in the early rounds, as of right now all i do is go for the speeders first, then the rhinos. he tries to hang back and shoot it out with me, but i have the range advantage and his most powerful ranged attack is a krak missile.
when we play i really can't find any mistakes on his part. i really suspect his list needs to be adjusted.
what can he do to make his army more of a long range threat to counter what i have? what can he do to make his army more potent in CC?
oh i also sometimes play a squad of 5 chosen (3 PG 2 MG). these guys give him all sorts of trouble, as he just can't spare the firepower to go after them.
Last edited by Rabbit; March 29th, 2011 at 20:24.
My son plays a Drop Pod that carries either a Dread with melta or 10 SM with melta then drops behind or close to my Defiler. He takes the Melta in either group and wastes the Defiler almost every time. I've had to adjust my tactics to try and prevent this. He also uses a Whirlwind to ordance me from behind cover. Another favourite tactic of his is to take Kasaro Khan and outflank some bikes. He also uses no less than 10 snipers in a game so he can rend with them.
He also doesn't like bikers. He thinks they look dumb. I think a pred with las cannons would be great for him, but he doesn't want a mech army.
What about another sternguard squad?
this might be better posted in the space marine section as while we can give you advice on the chaotic side if things, loyalists play quite differently
If he could add more plasma e.g in his devastators then he would do better, some more armour and rhinos would also be good. Assault terminators can be a pain and dreadnoughts are always useful. How big are his scout and assault squads?
adamwelton "Bliss-giver is right as always."
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
he started with 10 assault marines, but he has whittled them down due to cost. now he runs about 7 with the chappie.
he plays 5 snipers and one scout with a HB or ML.
he uses three rhinos, so i don't think that's the problem. he has hinted that he likes the idea of getting an TH/SS squad of termies and a LR. that is scary, but it would surely help him out.
how would plasma help out his devs? the range is too short for long range, and they are more inaccurate than krak missiles. i think if he gave them 4 PG's and marched them up the field in a rhino they could pose problems, but i don't think he can sacrifice the ML's.
the assault squads are a pretty good fire magnet despite the fact that they struggle against both zerkers and PM's, but we both think the scouts are useless. what should he replace them with?
If a unit's not performing for him, then the obvious solution is to have him stop taking it in favour of something else.
Devastators are wasted against oblits - they're fine units, but they should be popping transports or throwing frag blasts at units with 3+ saves.
The tactical squads should be loaded out a little heavier then they are - My preference is for Combimelta/meltagun/plasma cannon, though there's other good builds as well.
He's overdoing the sternguard - 5 guys, 2 combi-meltas, and a rhino/razorback are all you need from a unit of them.
Most of all, he needs to rethink his target prioritization with each squad, and rethink what units to take based on their performance. Doing the exact same thing over and over again will only give you the exact same result, which means he needs to consider how each unit performed after a battle, and make any adaptations necessary for the next time around.
making those changes will save him lots of points. any suggestions on what to do with them? how much is a lascannon razorback? i really think that having some of those instead of rhinos will allow him to be more effective in the early rounds.
a dread couldn't hurt either.
A couple things I can think of right off hand:
1) drop the speeders for attack bikes with mm
2) assault terminators with th/ss will help out in cc
3) scout squads with camo cloaks are great for camping objectives, maybe 2 smalls squads
4) drop a tactical squad to get the terminators in
I don't have my codex at the moment, but I'd drop both tactical squads and the speeders. Add in the terminator assault squad and some attack bikes with small scout squads to hold your objectives. He could possibly kit a scout squad to outflank and go after the defiler.
Hope these suggestions are helpful. If you need more (or more specific) help let me know. Good luck!
And have your friend start taking more of units that do work for him, or try out new units with his spare points. What he needs to be doing is experimenting - trying new and different things to figure out what works best for him.