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  1. #1
    Senior Member Karrain's Avatar
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    Thinking of starting a Black Templars army...what's good/bad

    Hi all.

    After having played 40K for a while (6 years) I'm looking at starting my first imperial army and liked the look of Black Templars. They're not 'normal' Space Marines rules or fluff wise, which I like but, as a consequence I'm not entierly sure what I should look at getting.

    My questions:

    Can Templars mechanise?

    What units should I avoid?

    Army weaknesses/strengths?

    "Take their gold, burn their homes, kill their familes and enslave their souls. Show them no mercy...oh and could you post these letters while you're out?"
    -Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth.

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  3. #2
    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    1)Yes

    2)Infantry with heavy weapons,forget been shooty.

    3)Preaty much everything in their dex works nicely,but i hear their bikes are overpriced.

    4)Monsters in CC i think sums it up.

    I was between them and my DA when i started my career,so introduced them to friend o mine.These quys although they have a codex as old as mudm,they were competitive even before the new update,more so now.

    Also have in mind that rumour circulates that theirs might be next new marine codex.
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  4. #3
    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    459 (x8)

    1)Yes

    2)Infantry with heavy weapons,forget been shooty.

    3)Preaty much everything in their dex works nicely,but i hear their bikes are overpriced.

    4)Monsters in CC i think sums it up.

    I was between them and my DA when i started my career,so introduced them to friend o mine.These quys although they have a codex as old as mudm,they were competitive even before the new update,more so now.

    If i wanted a CC marine army id go here or BA(i dont like pupies).

    Also have in mind that rumour circulates that theirs might be next new marine codex.
    Praise be to the Emperor!!
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  5. #4
    LO Zealot watchwood's Avatar
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    Pilot, I gotta disagree with you about the BT making for a bad shooty army. Consider this:

    Emperor's Champion, AACNMTO
    5x Terminators, 2x CML, Tank hunters
    5x Terminators, 2x CML, Tank hunters
    5x TH/SS Terminators, Furious Charge
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    =1491

    This right here is probably one of the best gunline armies of any marine codex, and with the Champion there they're still a long way from being pushovers in CC. The Templars do shooty lists just fine.

  6. #5
    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchwood View Post
    Pilot, I gotta disagree with you about the BT making for a bad shooty army. Consider this:

    Emperor's Champion, AACNMTO
    5x Terminators, 2x CML, Tank hunters
    5x Terminators, 2x CML, Tank hunters
    5x TH/SS Terminators, Furious Charge
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    5x Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Rifle
    =1491

    This right here is probably one of the best gunline armies of any marine codex, and with the Champion there they're still a long way from being pushovers in CC. The Templars do shooty lists just fine.
    Consider that asside from the terminators who have no problem moving for the rest of the army been forced to move if they suffer 1 casualty per squad is a big problem.All the times i faced BT i splasma gunned/lascannoned them to death.
    Most lists i see are ones like this or 15 man squads.If you have a couple of tactical squads with plasma guns a few land speeders and a couple of vindies,if they make the mistake of footsloging the heavy guns are off.Were talking about 100+ points waisted.
    Only termies have any chance of using their power and thats what cover is for.And lets not speek about pure biker or ravenwing lists.Your toast.

    Most BT forget that they are neither orks(numbers),nor space wolves(ubergrit/awsome devastators),and before you tell ok with every casualty ill be closer to Clober u to death remember what the rules say:Move to and attack the CLOSEST enemy unit:Too bad i outflanked you with this combat squaded scout team.Move some inches backwards your whole army to assault me.What is that?More turns to gun you down?If by some luck those scouts survive by more than one turn you have lost two whole turns moving away from me all the while shooting at scouts,trying to assault them and generaly been forced to ignore the gunline.And i am a marine,imagine what would happen if i was IG and i had exterminators....oooch!

    Seriously now,the only way to meke BT work with this dex is to either mekanise them(transports/bikes/preds/vindies)Or dps them or induct units.Seriously now i have suffer many times at the hands of inducted grey knights(old school) and ive seen devastators been replaced with karsakin squads.Before you laugh let me remind you that they have heavy and special guns AND they dont need to charge you.OFC the last option is obslete in 5th nowdays but you can imagine the enemys face acouple stromtrooper stick to cover and fire away.Target priorities anyone?
    If you footslog your gonna be plasma/lascannoned/vindicated to death and your enemy is going to dance you for a couple of turns with expendble units.

    All this from a space marine/DA prespective.

    Oh now that i remembered it,in my last battle i used 2 libbys to teleport a combat squaded terminator unit around instead of sacrifising scouts,i need not elaborate on this...

    My point is:If you know that you ganna face BT board permitting you can capitalise on their 'free' movement its over for them.Its a long shot but it works against pure foot sloger BT.BT need deep striking transports and heavy support vehicles.Deep strike,move vehicles disembark take the enemies shots,move that bonus inches enter assault range and clober them to death.I have in no codex seen more usefull assault marines btw.
    As with every dex there are multiple ways to play an army for me to try to make BT a footslog mobile gunline is not the way.

    Ps.Your list could work better if you TH/SS furious charge all those termies and deepstrike them into the enemy lines with a couple of termy chaps or a crusader(blessed armor?Yes plz).

    This post is written in a sleepy hurry forgive me if i sound un-mannered,i have no purpose of sounding like this and i really dont want to edit it right now.Perhaps tommorow.Panrdon any spelling mistakes as well.

    -AACNMTO?Really?Well will they make it thus far to use it i wonder?
    -Remember even orks need transports and they have wayyyyy more models.
    -Goodnight.
    Last edited by pilot00; April 16th, 2011 at 23:46.
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  7. #6
    LO Zealot watchwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilot00 View Post
    Consider that asside from the terminators who have no problem moving for the rest of the army been forced to move if they suffer 1 casualty per squad is a big problem.All the times i faced BT i splasma gunned/lascannoned them to death.
    Most lists i see are ones like this or 15 man squads.If you have a couple of tactical squads with plasma guns a few land speeders and a couple of vindies,if they make the mistake of footsloging the heavy guns are off.Were talking about 100+ points waisted.
    Only termies have any chance of using their power and thats what cover is for.And lets not speek about pure biker or ravenwing lists.Your toast.

    Most BT forget that they are neither orks(numbers),nor space wolves(ubergrit/awsome devastators),and before you tell ok with every casualty ill be closer to Clober u to death remember what the rules say:Move to and attack the CLOSEST enemy unit:Too bad i outflanked you with this combat squaded scout team.Move some inches backwards your whole army to assault me.What is that?More turns to gun you down?If by some luck those scouts survive by more than one turn you have lost two whole turns moving away from me all the while shooting at scouts,trying to assault them and generaly been forced to ignore the gunline.And i am a marine,imagine what would happen if i was IG and i had exterminators....oooch!

    Seriously now,the only way to meke BT work with this dex is to either mekanise them(transports/bikes/preds/vindies)Or dps them or induct units.Seriously now i have suffer many times at the hands of inducted grey knights(old school) and ive seen devastators been replaced with karsakin squads.Before you laugh let me remind you that they have heavy and special guns AND they dont need to charge you.OFC the last option is obslete in 5th nowdays but you can imagine the enemys face acouple stromtrooper stick to cover and fire away.Target priorities anyone?
    If you footslog your gonna be plasma/lascannoned/vindicated to death and your enemy is going to dance you for a couple of turns with expendble units.

    All this from a space marine/DA prespective.

    Oh now that i remembered it,in my last battle i used 2 libbys to teleport a combat squaded terminator unit around instead of sacrifising scouts,i need not elaborate on this...

    My point is:If you know that you ganna face BT board permitting you can capitalise on their 'free' movement its over for them.Its a long shot but it works against pure foot sloger BT.BT need deep striking transports and heavy support vehicles.Deep strike,move vehicles disembark take the enemies shots,move that bonus inches enter assault range and clober them to death.I have in no codex seen more usefull assault marines btw.
    As with every dex there are multiple ways to play an army for me to try to make BT a footslog mobile gunline is not the way.

    Ps.Your list could work better if you TH/SS furious charge all those termies and deepstrike them into the enemy lines with a couple of termy chaps or a crusader(blessed armor?Yes plz).

    This post is written in a sleepy hurry forgive me if i sound un-mannered,i have no purpose of sounding like this and i really dont want to edit it right now.Perhaps tommorow.Panrdon any spelling mistakes as well.

    -AACNMTO?Really?Well will they make it thus far to use it i wonder?
    -Remember even orks need transports and they have wayyyyy more models.
    -Goodnight.
    First off, the movement thing is treated as a CONSOLIDATION move. You may be required to move, but there's nothing at all saying that you have to move every model, or the full distance. It's perfectly legal to move the guy in the back .000001". Even that it's assuming I take casualties at all, which power armour and cover means you'll actually have to put a little bit of effort into it. There's also nothing stopping me from shooting at ANY OTHER UNIT, in which case I wouldn't have to assault your guys unless I wanted to anyways.

    I haven't at all forgotten about the ravenwing - I run a Ravenwing army myself, I'm fully familiar with their capabilities. Your advantages are mobility and a lot of guns - you have little defense against the massed high strength low AP shooting that this army puts out, with flipping tons of shots that wound you on 2's and ignore your armour. And as infantry instead of bikers, the BT are capable of taking much more advantage of terrain for defense. And if you get within 12" I can just run up and punch you, charging marines with BP/CCW and Preferred Enemy are nothing to sneeze at.

    Long story short - There's nothing making me run blindly towards whatever unit happens to be closest to me unless I want to, and there's nothing keeping me from shooting at whatever unit I want, with the exception of a couple very specific psychic powers that don't see a lot of play. There's a lot of misconceptions floating around about the BT, and you appear to have quite a few of them.

    (And no offense, but your posts reads like a bunch of drunken rambling)

  8. #7
    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchwood View Post
    First off, the movement thing is treated as a CONSOLIDATION move. You may be required to move, but there's nothing at all saying that you have to move every model, or the full distance. It's perfectly legal to move the guy in the back .000001". Even that it's assuming I take casualties at all, which power armour and cover means you'll actually have to put a little bit of effort into it. There's also nothing stopping me from shooting at ANY OTHER UNIT, in which case I wouldn't have to assault your guys unless I wanted to anyways.

    I haven't at all forgotten about the ravenwing - I run a Ravenwing army myself, I'm fully familiar with their capabilities. Your advantages are mobility and a lot of guns - you have little defense against the massed high strength low AP shooting that this army puts out, with flipping tons of shots that wound you on 2's and ignore your armour. And as infantry instead of bikers, the BT are capable of taking much more advantage of terrain for defense. And if you get within 12" I can just run up and punch you, charging marines with BP/CCW and Preferred Enemy are nothing to sneeze at.

    Long story short - There's nothing making me run blindly towards whatever unit happens to be closest to me unless I want to, and there's nothing keeping me from shooting at whatever unit I want, with the exception of a couple very specific psychic powers that don't see a lot of play. There's a lot of misconceptions floating around about the BT, and you appear to have quite a few of them.

    (And no offense, but your posts reads like a bunch of drunken rambling)
    Lets seeFC you can fire and lose the move.IF you rapid fire or fire those LC BEFORE you roll for morale checks and movement you can move.

    Quoting the righteus zeal rule:If an infantry unit is called to make a morale check and passes it,it MUST MOVE towards the nearest visible enemy unit enemy.This is identical to a consolidation move....etc.
    Since you roll a die to move those inches you are forced to move those inches.It doesnt say anywere you choose how much to move either.And even if that was the case the fact that you moved a single inch means that you loose those heavy weapons.And from when you can move only chosen models in a squad?Ill move only the bolter guys and the Lascannon guy will remain in cohesion unmoved so he can shoot is a bit nice way to intrpit the rules but its a bit of a no no.

    Indeed plasma rifles and bolters mean you can fire but you may be out ranged in large boards leaving only the lascannon to snipe.

    Granted its very hard to gun the whole army but you are fielding five man tactical squads and they can be piecemealed by low ap pies.

    As for the bikes:I dont see any CCW/bolt pistol in your exsept if you mean that in each squad the rest 3 intiates are equiped as such,thereby your squads deal 2 shots each round above 12 inches.Forgive me but even with 6 high strength shots thats not enough fire volume(not a ton at all) to castle(if you manage to stay in cover) and wittle down the enemy.Remember that bike squads also get plasma weapons and I also would like you trying to assault bikes if you have fired those lascannons since you cant because they are heavy weapons.Also if you dont i want to see how foot slogers will catch bikes in an assault.

    No i wasnt drunk i was nearly 36 hours without sleep and i happened to see that email and i just wanted to discuss some opinions.

    Sorry again if i offended in anyway.

    Remember i dont want to prove that BT and gunline BT are impossible.on the contrary,though I am making my arguements as to why i believe its not a nice idea to use them a static(barely)gun line.By doing this you go in a much more difficult way that its not in the spirit of the chapter.

    BTW you have 6 troops choices in that list.
    Last edited by pilot00; April 17th, 2011 at 14:44.
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  9. #8
    LO Zealot watchwood's Avatar
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    [quote]Since you roll a die to move those inches you are forced to move those inches.It doesnt say anywere you choose how much to move either.And even if that was the case the fact that you moved a single inch means that you loose those heavy weapons.And from when you can move only chosen models in a squad?Ill move only the bolter guys and the Lascannon guy will remain in cohesion unmoved so he can shoot is a bit nice way to intrpit the rules but its a bit of a no no. [quote]
    The morale check and movement is done in the enemy's phase. It ALSO says, in YOUR OWN QUOTE, that it's done identically to a consolidation check, which means you DO NOT have to move the full distance. You can move a single guy less then an inch and be perfectly good. What this means is that you "move" in your enemys phase, and then in your own phase you stay right where you were, which means you can still fire all your weapons to full effect. Go read the rules about consolidation moves, you'll learn something.

    Indeed plasma rifles and bolters mean you can fire but you may be out ranged in large boards leaving only the lascannon to snipe.
    Go ask any Grey Knight player - 24" is a lot more then it sounds like, especially if you're playing the game with any kind of half decent terrain. The only thing you have to worry about is an IG gunline, and even they won't like the volume of firepower that I'll be sending downrange each turn.

    Granted its very hard to gun the whole army but you are fielding five man tactical squads and they can be piecemealed by low ap pies.
    You do play with terrain in your area, right? It's not hard to stick a bunch of 5 man squads in cover.

    As for the bikes:I dont see any CCW/bolt pistol in your exsept if you mean that in each squad the rest 3 intiates are equiped as such,thereby your squads deal 2 shots each round above 12 inches.Forgive me but even with 6 high strength shots thats not enough fire volume(not a ton at all) to castle(if you manage to stay in cover) and wittle down the enemy.Remember that bike squads also get plasma weapons and I also would like you trying to assault bikes if you have fired those lascannons since you cant because they are heavy weapons.Also if you dont i want to see how foot slogers will catch bikes in an assault.
    It's simple, if you come within 12" of me I break cover and assault, otherwise I just stay in cover and continue to shoot at you. Bike are more mobile, but that doesn't make their weapons magically longer ranged, which means they still gotta get close to be able to use those plasma rifles. And it's 20 shots above 12", not 6 shots. All at BS4, which means that most of them are going to hit. Don't forget about the terminator squads, who are fully capable of firing on the move on top of everything else.

    BTW you have 6 troops choices in that list.
    I'm aware. What's your point?

  10. #9
    Senior Member Karrain's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the feedback guys...

    I think I'll run a Cc army anyway, my last army was a shooty Thousand Sons one and my Tyranids are also fairly shooty so I'd like to have one force that is purpose built for smashing things up with relic blades and power swords.
    I assume that by Mechanising I get rid of the downsides of the Righteous Zeal rule but with most of my opponents running mech armies I'll still be running towards something that's generally worth killing. I should be able to get the 'dex today or tomorrow (still only $33 in Aus) and I'll put up some concept lists.
    "Take their gold, burn their homes, kill their familes and enslave their souls. Show them no mercy...oh and could you post these letters while you're out?"
    -Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth.

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    LO Zealot greggles's Avatar
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    Keep in mind, that BT rhino's use the old points system. You're looking at 53 points for a rhino with smoke launchers, vs 35 points in the new 5e space marine codexes. This might not sound like much, but if you're taking 4 rhinos, it adds up to a 72 point difference.

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