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What are the thoughts of experienced GK players on draigo and crowe armies?
As a new player it seems to me that crowe is better for smaller points armies whilst Draigo works best with more points, thoughts?
how do paladin armies compare to purifier armies throughout the points range?
Yeah, Draigo doesn't really work below 1500. When a single model is a quarter of your points, that's a bad army.
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I agree Draigo is about 19 models at 2k, which is quite a low model count but has been proven to work. Once you start going down in points it becomes a dangerously low model count.
Crowe on the other hand is a much cheaper HQ to begin with Less then half the cost of Draigo if i recall. That gives you more space for more guys at lower points and puifiers are far less expensive.
The problem however is actual $ cost. I am not sure about the new prices, but when i was looking at the old prices buying a Draigowing Army is less expensive. Especially if your running your purifiers are in brand new rhinos/Razorbacks. Here is what i came up with.
~$335us for 2000pt Draigowing at old prices 3 terminator boxes 3 dreadknights and Draigo
~$425us for Crowe 30 purifiers and 6 razorbacks
Now as far as a Draigowing vs Purifier list... i cant say for sure, there are only 2 other GK players in my club and they are both running all around lists and not a theme list. My thoughts on it is that there are twice as many bodies in the purifier list and thats twice as many storm bolter/psycannon shots when in range. 2+ saves will fail at some point... Now in CC Draigowing has some advantage of atleast being able to roll an invulnerable save with every model, vs Crowe being the only invulnerable save in the purifier list. Sadly however Draigowing will be just removing expensive models if they do fail saves, 2 wound Paladins and 4 wound Dreadknights still die to activated force weapons.
Thanks guys, sound advice. It's kind of a shame about the high points cost of paladins with them being so cool, don't get me wrong I like the knights for the challenges they present in force-building, but It seems that they more expensive than they should be points wise, I mean I can't imagine a single squad of paladins really being capable of beating a tiny army of marines at equal points cost. I don't know that from experience but really? Even the cheapest squad of 5 paladins at 440 points is near to thirty marines!
I dont do Math hammer so i cant give accurate stats but i would put 5 paladins against 30 marines, hopfully not all at one time, but even 30 vs 5 Stock Paladins are going to take down most of the marines before they are all gone.
Paladins have 2 shots at 24" and can assault, bolters are great until you want to assault then they are stuck in place.
The Paladins are WS5 so rolling 3s to hit, gonna use hammerhand cuz they are only marines and dont have multi wounds, so rolling even more 3s to wound. They are power weapons, so no saves, each round of CC my guestimate is about 9 dead marines on the charge, 6 with out Charge. By the time the 30 Marines get past the 2+ save to kill all 5 paladins i think there will be less then 6 Marines left.
All this is assuming no upgrades, Paladins do get Halberds and Hammers for free... If they took Halberds the Marines are toast before they can even think of swinging.
Just my out look on things, ofcourse poor rolling will kill any army, one combat round i had to roll 6 armor saves, and i rolled 4 1s.... so anything is possible.
There are a couple things to consider when comparing these two armies, as I am currently in the process of making a final decision between the two myself.
I think of draigowing and I go by the number of wounds, not the number of models on the board. Yes instakill weapons can make a joke of multiwound models, but with the ability to abuse wound allocation you can usually manage to put all the instakill wounds on one model and even then you still get an invulnerable save. This balances it out in my mind and lets me go by wounds. Thinking this way, the typical draigowing list at 2k has 30-40 terminator wounds, and 8-12 toughness 6 terminator wounds, not to mention draigo's own 4 wounds. Thats alot of wounds to go through that have amazing armor and invulnerable saves.
With shooting, the Crowe army has more stormbolter shots and when standing still has more psycannons shots, however when is your army just standing still? Especially a mounted army like a purifier list. Paladins on the other hand are constantly on the move and still get to fire the heavy version of the psycannon due to their terminator armor. In CC I tend to think they balance out a bit, purifiers get more attacks and cleansing flame, but ALL of a paladin squads attacks are force weapons and they have a higher weapon skill.
Honestly I really think it balances out over all, and comes down to what you want to play and who are you playing against. Both lists are very effective and both have some different strengths and weaknesses. Crowe lists do better against horde armies, and are more mobile with transports. Draigowing crushes other elite lists and has the additional factor of not many people build lists with plans to go up against an entire army of 2+/4-5++. Draigowing also gets to benefit from The Grand Strategy which can mess with opponents.
In a super competitive tourney, Crowe lists might actually do slightly better because crowe lists tend to be able run successful MSU builds and to have the points and FO slots to take psyfleman dreads for anti-transports in this age of mech.
Last edited by Phaeron Typhoon; May 29th, 2011 at 21:22.
The key to successful draigowing is trying to make the opponent fight on your terms, use fast dreadknights and movement to engage one part of your opponents army at a time. Go completely head to head and that is when the paladins come into danger of getting drowned in bodies.
Excellent points all round thankyou humanoid typhoon and very helpful info on the two army types.
Im surprised to hear it but I don't doubt you that paladins could take on the marines; and your exactly right about picking off your enemy of course and using strategy, which is always the reality of the game, so well argued.
I knew I'd be wrong on points value there as I dont know basic paladins off the top of my head so I was thinking of 5 fully kitted out paladins and was being lazy with language.
Im thinking of eventually having a large GK force which allows me to pick a small paladin force, or a small purifier force for smaller games but which works as one larger army for bigger battles. That way you can play either when you feel like it. I imagine a lot of people do that with grey knights.
I would also keep in mind that you don't always have to commit your entire army to paladins simply because you include Draigo. Many players use grand masters as their HQ choice and equip them with an extra grenade option and some servo skulls which brings the cost to around 200 points. Draigo is only 70-75 points more, maybe even less if you really trick out your GM. However, for those points you get +1 ws, + 1 str, +1 toughness, +1 attack, storm shield (3+ inv), eternal warrior, a flamer psychic attack, and his fancy daemon killing sword. Placing str 8 + weapon attacks that would insta kill other infantry on draigo will quickly make up for his extra cost, so consider his awesome stats a free bonus.
Moving to my point, a fairly standard army could incorporate Draigo and 5 man paladin squad quite easy. It would cost 590-665 points on average with a standard set up depending on if an apothecary is taken. A grandmaster with 3 servo skulls and grenades with 5 terminators with psycannon will cost 430 points. It averages out to 200 points to upgrade to Draigo and the paladins. Many feel as though you are now compelled to take additional paladins as your troops to justify these costs when in reality in terms of units all it would sacrifice is a 5 man strike squad in a rhino. I can guarantee that Draigo and 5 paladins will far exceed the performance of a GM, 5 termies and 200+ of stuff **on average**. I understand some armies are built a certain way and have no room for Draigo etc., but I find most standard grey knight builds can swap out this unit for that - it all comes down to preference.
Just some points to consider!
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Well, me and my buddy got to give this a go a couple of weeks ago. My 2.5k DriagoWing army versus his 2.5k Crowe Ard Boyz list. We played one of the 2010 scenarios.
Ending result was 23-0 DriagoWing. He had nothing but a PsyRifleMan left on the table, which was running away.
Granted, this was the two armies facing off against each other. Against other opponents they are both strong builds and a ton of fun to play. I prefer running DriagoWing, but am currently working on amassing PAGKs for my Crowe army.