Lascannons != the preferred choice against tanks - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Son of LO IronWeevil's Avatar
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    Lascannons != the preferred choice against tanks

    It's a slow day, so kicking an anthill seems to be in order.

    I've seen a number of posts that suggest that the lascannon is a good anti tank weapon. The odds of getting a kill against an AV 13+ vehicle with a lascannon are remote. Against a Predator, you're looking for a 5+ to penetrate after a 4+ to hit. This amounts to 17%. You then need to get a 5+ to wreck or explode. So you're at about 5.4%. In order to make this viable you need a pretty hefty number of lascannons, which aren't cheap. Can they do it? Yes. Is it likely? not so much.

    Lascannons work against MCs (Screw you right in your armored shell!), and to a lesser extent transports. The kill rate against transports skews higher by the 50% chance of a penetrating hit giving you 8.25%. This is better, but not enough to bet the farm on. It's worth noting that stunning a transport is a viable way of breaking up an opponent's advance coherency.

    Autocannons are an arguably better weapon against transports with a higher hit rate, even if the likelihood of a penetrating hit is lower.

    So what does work against tanks? Str 10 Ordinance, from Medusae, Manticores, and Demolishers do it at range. Melta from squads and and Hellhounds works up close. Melta's +1 on the damage chart is a big winner, with a 22.22% kill rate at BS4.

    Praise the Emperor and pass the promethium!

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  3. #2
    LO Zealot Col. Dracus's Avatar
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    I agree! I do seem to have an issue with the scatter of the Str 10 Ord though. Sure 1/3 of the time you get a "hit" but the other 2/3rd you scatter, and even if you are looking at an average of 7"-3" for your BS3 it's still a 4" scatter! Thats still not going to hit your intended target unless it's a Baneblade...

  4. #3
    Son of LO IronWeevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Dracus View Post
    I agree! I do seem to have an issue with the scatter of the Str 10 Ord though. Sure 1/3 of the time you get a "hit" but the other 2/3rd you scatter, and even if you are looking at an average of 7"-3" for your BS3 it's still a 4" scatter! Thats still not going to hit your intended target unless it's a Baneblade...
    That's a fair point, but I'd rather bet on two ordinance templates than a pair of lascannons. Even with a miss, an ordinance template has a chance to hit something else in an enemy deployment zone, so it's less likely to be a complete waste of a shot.

    In my experience, the real limiter in games is not so much points as it is time. Making your early shots count is a solid contributor to a win.
    Praise the Emperor and pass the promethium!

  5. #4
    Member Hockeyman506's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronWeevil View Post
    It's a slow day, so kicking an anthill seems to be in order.

    I've seen a number of posts that suggest that the lascannon is a good anti tank weapon. The odds of getting a kill against an AV 13+ vehicle with a lascannon are remote. Against a Predator, you're looking for a 5+ to penetrate after a 4+ to hit. This amounts to 17%. You then need to get a 5+ to wreck or explode. So you're at about 5.4%. In order to make this viable you need a pretty hefty number of lascannons, which aren't cheap. Can they do it? Yes. Is it likely? not so much.

    Lascannons work against MCs (Screw you right in your armored shell!), and to a lesser extent transports. The kill rate against transports skews higher by the 50% chance of a penetrating hit giving you 8.25%. This is better, but not enough to bet the farm on. It's worth noting that stunning a transport is a viable way of breaking up an opponent's advance coherency.

    Autocannons are an arguably better weapon against transports with a higher hit rate, even if the likelihood of a penetrating hit is lower.

    So what does work against tanks? Str 10 Ordinance, from Medusae, Manticores, and Demolishers do it at range. Melta from squads and and Hellhounds works up close. Melta's +1 on the damage chart is a big winner, with a 22.22% kill rate at BS4.
    Agreed.

    To be fair, though, against a lot of those tanks (Russes, Hammerheads, Preds, Dreads, etc), stopping it from shooting is priority. Killing it is icing on the cake!

  6. #5
    jboweruk
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    I'd go with a Vanquisher for AT, if I know I'm going for a decent size battle with a lot of armour then a Vanquisher with Pask inside, that's gonna mess some armour up.

  7. #6
    Son of LO IronWeevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyman506 View Post
    Agreed.

    To be fair, though, against a lot of those tanks (Russes, Hammerheads, Preds, Dreads, etc), stopping it from shooting is priority. Killing it is icing on the cake!
    Icing or no, A kill allows you to shoot at something else in the following turns .
    Praise the Emperor and pass the promethium!

  8. #7
    LO Zealot Col. Dracus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronWeevil View Post
    That's a fair point, but I'd rather bet on two ordinance templates than a pair of lascannons. Even with a miss, an ordinance template has a chance to hit something else in an enemy deployment zone, so it's less likely to be a complete waste of a shot.

    In my experience, the real limiter in games is not so much points as it is time. Making your early shots count is a solid contributor to a win.
    But at what points difference? I think the best 2 to compair for the price are the Manticore (160 ) and the Vendetta (130 ). With the Manticore you get at most 4 D3 templates per game, but with the Vendetta you get at most 21 twin-linked lascannon shots. Say you end up getting 8 templates from the Manticore (average) you are paying 20 points per template, with the Vendetta you are paying about 6 points per shot, is it worth paying over 3 times as much per template for anti-tank? Sure it is for anti-troop, but it's hard to say it's viable as your main AT for your army. But if you have an open shot I say "TAKE IT!"
    I don't mean to disagree with you, becuase in the end I don't but I just have a different POV.

  9. #8
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    you must note that in the IG nothing is strong alone. but when you get 10 lascannon shot against a single target, the situation is different.
    I don't use Vendettas or Valks...if Guardsmen were meant to fly, the Emperor would have given them wings. (343rd Mordian)
    The battle for Hidaxes SubSector (Listwar)! 184th Cadian blog: 184th.blogspot.com

  10. #9
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    Well, for a start, you're comparing apples and oranges. Whether or not you believe ordnance is better or not, troops can't carry ordnance and an autocannon doesn't come close to a lascannon for tankbusting for obvious reasons. Yes, an ac may be preferable vs av 10/11 targets but that's all.

    Your maths is also working out one chance; the chance of a single shot kill. You're not factoring in that any penetration is good (that's what she said) and it's a solid fact that it's more likely to pen than any other troop weapon that doesn't require you to be really close and/or need transport to make that happen.

    Then what about heavies where there are other options? Multimeltas are awesome but they don't have the range of a lascannon; battlecannons are, well, battlecannons and in a different category. Same goes for Medusas; they're in another category by virtue of the fact they can only be mounted on one, slow, vulnerable tank. The list goes on exactly like that.

    So overall, when you say lascannons aren't the best all round, you may be right; but comparing them against their equivalents, how can there be any doubt?
    Last edited by Calmdown; June 22nd, 2011 at 01:49.

  11. #10
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    In general, I agree with the original post...the exception is vendettas...sure, they're only AV12, but they're severely undercosted, making godhammer (bit better than 5% kill rate when you're TLed!) spam a viable option if you have the money for the models...
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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