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Hello to everyone,i'm going to face soon an Ultrmarine army leaded by an experienced player ,while i'm new to 40K ,with my Cadian guard force What are the best tactics ,units and equipment/doctrines against an ultrmarines army?
What should I expect my enemy to field and what should i fear?
What point totals are you using?
Does he know what models you own? (ie. if he knows you only own 1 tank he'll load up on Heavy Bolters)
In general I'd say he'll take Terminators to DeepStrike, LandSpeeders with MultiMeltas to tank hunt and a Devestator squad with LasCannon or HBolter, or maybe 2 Dev squads. I wouldn't expect him to take many Tanks or Dreadnaughts since IG can usually field so many Heavy Weapons.
War Record Since Sept 2005
Old Codex 48-20-9 Dark Eldar
New Codex 1-0-0 Dark Eldar
Well, I primarily play Marines, and have been destroyed a couple times in battles against the guard. The trick to beating a Space Marine army with a guard army is to forse your opponent to move. If he's smart, he'll set up in a flanking position. Basically, he'll have most of his army on one side of his deployment area. Then, he'll begin moving up that side, focus his attacks on one part of your army, and then move on. Unless you are playing a mission in which you need to catpure board space, I would say let him think he can get away with this. Hold off on deploying your artillery (mortars, griffons, basilisks) until you have determined which side of the board he wants to use for his flanking manuvure (don't know how to spell that word at all).
Place your heavy stuff on the diagonal across from his army. This will allow your to pound them with shells as they move up the board. Once they get in range, massed lasgun fire will be your best friend. Focus on one squad (usually the closest) with as much of your army as you can. You can usually wipe out a few squads this way. With your artillery across the board from his army, he's going to have to go through ALOT of fire to take it out, and, with luck, you can take out half, if not most, of the marines trying to silence your big guns.
P.S. If you don't have artillery, use massed lasgun fire, but stick to spreading out your army as much as possibly. If you mass them together, he'll just rush to them, bolters blazin away, and crush you in cc.
I'd say sit tight for the first 2-3 turns and pound him with long range firepower. Set your units in cover so you can at least make a cover save against bolters. First and foremost target any fast moving squads he has such as Assault squads; then whatever he has for an HQ. I find a SM HQ to be the thing that usually bites me in the butt late in the game. ^_^
High Elves (BloodBowl)
Warseer Blood Bowl League
well since ultramarines are just basica marines. things you should be look out for.
1. whirlwind. these thing are to IG, as the Bassie is to SM. it really puts the hurt down on IG since we usually have soo many guys that we can't space them out as much as we'd like. deepstrike meltaguns on them (either SS or Vets).
2. Multimelta landspeeders. they're fast and can pop armor. very nasty if they're used well. can take out your Russ/Demolisher very quickly. and if you don't protect it, can even get to your Basalisk. perhaps position some sentinels to intercept, Multilasers do wonders asgainst Lspeeders.
3. BS 4 HeavyBolters (or missle launchers). a 3-4 HW Dev. squad can be annoying. yeah, they can't be screened, but T4 3+ & cover isn't the easiest thing to take out. better use your Russ to take them out asap.
4. pred/razors backs. most SMurfs use a couple of them. but don't be too worried. lascannons take them out rather quickly due to their lack of AV14. but do careful not to expose your tanks too much. keep them obscured and best armor facing them. BS4 lascannons take out chimeras/hellhounds very easily!
5. mass bolter fire. a BS3 lasgun as a 1/18 chance to take out a SMurf. a BS4 bolter as a 4/9 chance to take out a guardsmen. so when 9 guardsmen fire, they kill 1 SMurf, when 9 SMurfs fire they kill 8 guardsmen! not good odds! so don't be anxious to get in any "fire-fights"!! rely on your Heavy Weapons to do the damage cause you lasguns wont!
on a side note: i love lasguns. they're underestimated, but NEVER rely on them to do damage. HeavyWeapons (and special weapons) do damage, any kills lasguns get are bonus.
6. CC. yeah SMurfs aren't *awsome* in CC. at least not like Ork, Nids, most of chaos, BA, etc... but they'll kick the $hit out of guardsmen in CC if given the chance. and most SMurf armies can't outshoot IG, so they have to get in close. so make sure they don't reach you. and if they do either mimize the damage, or have a counter at hand.
i prefer the "damage minimization" technique. where you reduce the effectivness of their assults. and then gun them down.
a) when they get into position to assult you next turn, either move that squad forword and rapidfire/flame/etc (so as to increase the distance the CC will have to your other squads) or move back to try to get another turn.
b) make sure your other squads are OVER 6" away from the melee. if you squad gets wiped out, he'll get d6" consolodation. that means he could get up to 7"s (including his base).
c) don't survive the CC!! this is why i don't like Vet Sarges in my squads. when my guys get in CC i want them to run! either get cut down or get out. the worst thing to do is survive and then not be able to shoot them!
d) shoot them to hell
a) 5 man roughrider squad w/ huntinlances costs 66pts. (i think). not that bad for 10 ini5 str5 powerweapon attacks on the charge. and 5 guys would/should be easy enough to keep out of LOS till they're needed. now the hard part is getting some decent RR models!
b) Ogryns. i don't like them (bad models kinda pricy) but this is not to say they're usless. some IG generals love em! a squad of 5 has 15 wounds, if anything it'll take a non Pfist squad a while to take them out (make sure to put a bonehead or commie in there due to the sweeping advance rule).
c) Flamer Sentinels: for 40 pts you get a heavyflamer. not bad for slowing down the enemy and doing some decent damage to boot.
d) Command squad: 4 flamers/plasmaguns can do ALOT of damage to SMurfs. keep them out of LOS (or in a chimera/deepstrike) and help that JO get a promotion!
ps. tooled up Command HQs are a waste imo. use them to lead your troops from the rear, not the front.
well. there's a few tips goodluck
Thanks BoxAnt very useful hints.So i can't go hand to hand at all seems that everyone is better than us in HTH am i right?I already tought that lasguns were unable to wipe out enemy units...yes effectively on 18 shots only 9 will hit ,only 3 will wound and only 1 will bypass enemy armour...whatĂ¬s the best support weapon?
For now that's my army (i think we are going to field 1k and then 1500)i have got a normal Leman Russ armed with lascannon and flamer sponson,the missile and the linked bolter?(i don't know english translation),a Chimera,1 Sentinel (other 2 coming soon,i was thinking about giving them the lasercannon and perhaps to one of them a flamethrower...)3 boxes of troops some already assembled 2 command groups...as special weapons,for now i have got only 2 missile launcher,2 laser cannons and 2 auto cannons,then as heavy weapons 2 meltaguns and 2 plasma guns i think i should buy more of them,2 flamethrower,1 granade launcher(i don't like it too much...)and i have 40 man to assembly so i can give them more flamethrower or granade launcher but i don't know if it's worth it or not.Should i assemble them as normal troops and then buy melta and plasma guns?,i've given vox to all the units i can....but perhaps it's not worth it because in this method they will hold when they are better not to hold...Obviously i'm thinking about an elite unit of Hardened veterans or chosen soldiers and perhaps Ratlings...
oh yes i was thinking even about buying a Basilisk or an Hellhound i think i will do a poll to decide which of them is better.....
unless your using RoughRiders, i'd avoid CC. but if/when you do get into CC, you're going to need a 3:1 ratio to win (and that'll just give you a chance).
as for weapon choices.
against marines, squads with either lascannons/plasmaguns or misslelaunchers/plasmaguns are your best bet. true with the new rules, rapidfire plasmaguns are kinda scary to use, but they're still your best bet against marines.
of course autocannons are good against Rhinos.
as for your tanks. you have 40 guys and are looking to add quit a bit of armor. i'd increase my body count before adding too many vehicles.
Russ/Bassie are great. Hellhound/Chimera are nice, and Sentinels are useful. but in my opinion, Imperial Guard works good with lots of guys!
as for command squads, i'd use them to command my squads primarly. you should rely on just your command HQ to give Leadership, if it dies you'll be in trouble. i like to distribute the responsibility to all my command squads. Iron Disp is a great doctrine, use it.
i wouldn't put too much faith on Grenade Launchers when taking on Marines, yeah they're good against 4+ saves, but 3+ tend to ignore them
as for flamers... for 6 points, they're pretty cheap and come in handy. i don't put them in my basic squads too often, but a suicide command squad with 4 flamers in a chimera (or deepstriking) is a great unit!
but if you're dead set on taking out marines, max out on AP2/3, can't go wrong with that.
Originally posted by BoxANT@Oct 15 2004, 01:38
as for your tanks.Â* you have 40 guys and are looking to add quit a bit of armor.Â* i'd increase my body count before adding too many vehicles.[snapback]230310[/snapback]
Well i've got 62 guys plus 10 guys in the 2 command groups and 6 support weapons+hq command....a total of 90 men so basically i 've got 7 units of ten and 2 command groups...
that should be good for a 1500Originally posted by Kroq-Gar@Oct 15 2004, 02:20
Well i've got 62 guys plus 10 guys in the 2 command groups and 6 support weapons+hq command....a total of 90 men so basically i 've got 7 units of ten and 2 command groups...[snapback]230330[/snapback]
yeah then i'd imagine you'd want a Russ, Bassie, 2 chimera, hellhound in there as well.
Oh, good grief! I hate people who say guard can't hold their own in CC. They can and will fight CC an win. Against Ultramarines this is especially true because they don't really have any super CC death units (like orks or Khorne or nids). Just take carapace armour and tool up your command squad and invest in some xenos steeds. If you keep these in the second line you should be able to counter attack whatever manages to hit you.
after that squeeze in as many heavy weapons an plasma guns as possible and take at least 1 leman russ although a basilisk is not necessary. direct your fire first at whirlwinds, vindicators and landspeeders and bikes with melta weapons then split your fire between assualt orientated squads and big gun orientated squads. After the big guns in a squad have been taken out ignore it and find a better target. For some reason a minority people always keep shooting at SM squads even when the threat is gone (dunno why, it's just a fact).
And most importantly, just remember they're only power armoured pussies.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..