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Firstly, our new codex has both ups and downs. Some things got better, some things have become worse and a few things have stayed the same really... Thought I'd go over everything in the new dex and give my opinion on it (have had a few practice game, won them both):
Massive drop in points (not quite half, but very cheap to what she used to be), a nice boost in stat-line and her whole coming-back-to-life-thing is the same as the GK Thawn (though she's not scoring like him, but much better at fighting and multiple wounds). She acts normally when she comes back to life, meaning that she's a good fighter with speed in the enemies firebase/rear.
Do: Use her to sit on the enemies objectives, fight MCs and flame infantry before assaulting
Don't: use her against vehicles or walkers, don't leave her out in the open to be shot down before she can land behind the enemy, she can do better from within their firebase.
Verdict: You should always consider taking her, she's awesome! Cheap for what she does, objective missions she's a pain in the neck, and she doesn't count as a KP in annihilation unless dead at the end of the game. Just be prepared for your opponent to sigh when you bring her to the table.
*In the first part of the codex she's listed as an Independent Character, in the second half she's not... Thanks GW! /facepalm
I didn't know this guy when we had him back in 2nd ed... Pretty cheap, not a great fighter. 3 wounds and a Rosarius helps, but this guy will be beaten by most things half-decent at fighting. ID is a problem here too. Much more of a support character, his faith power only works when you assault. His weapon is nice if you can beat the enemy in combat and run them down, but it's no guarantee.
Do: use him where you need faith, he's reliable (re-roll, adds +1 to the unit and laud hailer is useful here too). Put him with a unit that needs the charge, and he'll do his job.
Don't: overestimate him, he's a support character, nothing more, he's not going to make or break your game, just give you a boost where you need it. Reliable with faith (re-roll, adds +1 to the unit and laud hailer is useful here too)
Verdict: Okay, not mind-blowing, if you put him with a unit of Repentia he could be useful long as they assault. Cheap too, which is nice, but there might be better HQ options out there...
Very similar to Kyrinov above, except that he's better. Cheap, very cheap for what he does. That faith re-roll is so good, always helpful. His banner could be useful in a unit of Repentia, giving them that extra attack, but I think he'd be more suited for a Ecclesiarchy bodyguard where his FnP and +1 attack boost can help most of them, and make the Arcos amazing with that massive amount of attacks! Same weaknesses as above, he's a support character so don't leave him in vulnerable positions, but with his faith power and banner, when he and his unit assaults, they're going to smash whatever they come near.
Do: use him to strengthen your armies faith roll, and have him boost the unit he's with so they're more durable and can dish it out more.
Don't: Leave him in vulnerable positions! If he goes, his special rule is gone and you're left to chance.
Verdict: Always take this guy in larger games, where you need his Faith re-roll. His combat-boosting is really good too, and when he's joined with the right unit, he can ensure they'll be able to fend off most things that come their way, definitely worth his points.
Well, if there's one positive about her now, it's that my enemies elite combat troops hit me on 4's... But overall, she's not the crutch that she used to be. Say bye-bye jump packs, yep, I know, I cried too. More expensive than before (though she was probably a bit too cheap...), without her faith leading to a 2++ with good reliability, she's not as good as she was. She's now more of a support character. Her faith power could boost squads up a little, but only the re-roll is really appreciated. She does give +1 to faith rolls of the unit she joins, which is good, but the days of her tearing apart Land Raiders and MCs looks to be over...
Do: have her support your squads with extra faith power options, stubborn and a +1 on their faith rolls.
Don't: use her as an angel of vengeance any more, those days are behind her.
Verdict: She's still very cheap, and a large unit of 20 sisters on foot with a canoness in their would make a great tarpit and still be able to dish out a lot of pain. Her roles are far more limited now, but I think there's still a place to take one. But without my beloved Canoness with Jump Pack, I'll be tempted to look around for my other HQ slot.
Sororitas Command Squad:
This in an interesting addition... Instead of Hospitalers or Dialogus' being part of an Inquisitorial unit, they're now part of the Command Squad, giving appropriate bonuses. I don't think forum rules allow me to go into what the Sister Dialogus' Laud Hailer does, but a few of these and Arch-Confessor Kyrinov in an army could really strengthen the amount of faith you're working with. They're faith power is really interesting too, load up the unit with H. Bolters and stick them in an Immolator. Drive up and drop them out, activate faith and hey presto! H. Bolters at point-blank range sounds nice to me. Will have to experiment with it...
Do: Try them out as a moving firebase, in terms of points it's not too bad, could be used to great effect in this role.
Don't: Use them as combat units, Celestians aren't the unit they used to be, they were never great, now they've lost what they had. Totally different role in the army now. You can no longer think to yourself "Sweet, they'll take this charge and hold them up with 3++ while the rest of the army gets away", it just isn't like that any more.
Verdict: I think these will have to be played with a bit for me to properly give them justice. Seems to me like they could work as a moving firebase, and might even have a role in a mechanised army where you spill out with the gals and let 'em rip **** up.
Well, I think that the Confessor has the same weaknesses as Uriah Jacobus and Kyrinov, but without their special rules or gear to back him up. You could argue that you'd take him so that you can take a Battle Conclave (which is where the Confessor's strength is really at, supporting his support), but both Uriah Jacobus and Kyrinov do that as well... Not terrible, but there are much better options out there!
Do: use him if you're a bit tight on points and you still need that Battle Conclave
Don't: take him when you could take one of the special characters that is nearly identical to him, but with kick-ass special rules and gear.
Verdict: Meh, special characters versions of the Confessor are better, the one bonus on them is that you can tailor him to have an Eviscerator or plasma, but it's not worth it when he's lost the rules given by the other two. Faith power goes okay.
Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave:
Read through this and thought to myself "Now why don't I have any arcos... I think I need some arcos". So much better in this one, no self-killing, and far better overall (Same as GK ones). Arco-flagellants, Crusaders and Death-Cult Assassins thrown together in a unit. You'll need a Confessor or one of the Confessor-esque characters to unlock the unit, but if you're not taking Uriah Jacobus already, you're doing something wrong! Each of the three options brings their strengths/weaknesses to the table. But they each cover the others downfalls pretty well. Small arms fire? Put it on the Arcos. Lascannon shot? Put it on the Crusaders. Charging Guardsmen? Keep the arcos alive. Charging Terminators? You'll need the Crusaders and DCA (mostly the DCA...). Taking on Eldar? Well you'll want those DCA. When you see it, you'll know what I mean. I'm going to have some fun mixing and matching to see which combinations work best. Pretty cheap as well, but I can see myself going overboard by maxing out the unit at 10, when maybe 6 might do it just as well... Can be given a dedicated transport, which is good to get them up the field safely.
Do: Use them alongside Repentia and bog down those units that want to reach your Battle Sisters and Exorcists.
Don't: Focus on only a single model type, playtest to see which is best for you: wave of attacks, chew through armour or defensive. Could be a bit pricy so watch out.
Verdict: I like these, I want to like them, but they will need that transport. I think they'll go hand-in-hand with Repentia, but they will attract fire in a foot-slogging list... But do they really have a role in mechanised? Well, wait and see I guess. Overall, I look forward to them.
Still playing the same role in this codex, boosting combat potential of footslogging units, plus-side is that you no longer need one to take arcos or penitent engines. Slightly more expensive, similar options to before (but no plasma gun, that annoyed me). You could put them in a unit of Repentia, but then they wouldnít have fleet, which is what they really needed. So, not all that great.
Do: Use them on units wanting to get into assault... Other than Repentia... So, nothing.
Donít: Think theyíre half-decent, the only reason people took them before was to get penitent engines or arcos (which werenít ever great to begin with). But now thatís gone too...
Verdict: Meh, could be useful in assaults with large squads on foot, but otherwise not exactly outstanding.
Very slight point rise on each Celestian, though I suppose this is offset by the frag, krak, bolt pistols and Shield of Faith. Price of the weapon options (yes, same options) remains mostly the same, going down a few points, on a few weapons (though as for storm bolters, I donít know anyone that took them before). So, mostly, itís the same unit with the same points, with the same stats except for the initiative (dropped by oneÖ). The Holy Hatred rule is gone now which really annoyed me, but their faith power does give them Fearless and extra Strength (better than the Battle Sister power at leastÖ but thatís not much of a benefit). I feel like theyíre a little misplaced now, not really about the shooting, nor really about the combat (weíve now got better options for thatÖ). I guess they allow you to get special/heavy weapons now without committing so many points to a unit, but thatís not much incentive is it?
Do: Use them in mechanised lists to get Immolators. Use them in footslogging lists to bog up enemy units with extra attacks, better combat faith, special/heavy weapons without committing too many points to the unit.
Donít: Rely on them. They were never all about the assault, they simply could hold their own and with lower numbers could pull off that lovely 3++.
Verdict: Theyíre worse now, same unit without the old kickass faith. Iím not saying theyíre absolute rubbish, but honestly, weíve got better units for shooting and combat, the Immolatorís the biggest appeal for me at the moment. So yeah, unless you want dual-melta or an immolator: Donít take them.
Okay, Iíll give you the good news first: Lower points cost, base attacks higher, better leadership, FnP as opposed to 4+ (makes sense to me, more resilient to AP3 and 4 as well), Fleet (instead of that stupid run-twice-without-assaulting-thing-half-of-the-time), no longer 0-1, can now go in transports (not dedicated thoughÖ), can be joined by independent characters now, Mistress armour save is better, and what I consider to be one of the best Faith Powers of all. Oh, right, that downsideÖ Maximum of 10 Repentia in a unit, but youíll have plenty of free Elite slots with those crappy Celestians, so who caresÖ You can take Melta Bombs on the Mistress, why?
Do: Take these. Great in footslogging armies, fantastic at defending your firebases and attracting enemy fire. In mechanised, I think that if you throw them in a transport, they would be okay. Obviously the vehicle has to sit still so they can assault out of it, but at least you know theyíre getting there safely. Particularly effective at Walkers and Vehicles, where we often struggle with Dreadnoughts, these girls are great for the job.
Donít: Judge Celestians as better than these.
Verdict: Love them to bits. Faster. Stronger. Tougher. More versatile. All good on my count. Take 2 strong units of these and Uriah Jacobus in a Battle Conclave squad of mostly Arcos and a few Crusaders/DCAÖ Thatís real combat potential, and people will avoid that like the plague.
I dislike the new Sisters. Our old butt-kicking gals of yesteryear are well and truly gone. No longer can you kill 10 Terminators with 20 Battle Sisters and just a bit of luck... No longer can you can hold up elite units of Incubi, Berzerkers or Terminators with that sweet, sweet 3++... No longer can you make them S5 and bash through a tank with women (Best. Ever.). So, what can you do? Not much sadly. Hold objectives I guess? Their faith power is ďusefulĒ, but now that youíre playing with less faith than before (well, less-reliable than before anyway), itís likely that those points will be sunk into Repentia and Dominion (Dominator?) squads. I think that footslogging sisters are far more viable than they were before, 20 power armoured, BS4 bolter-wielding troops are nothing to overlook. Theyíre cheaper, which is really nice. Really, theyíre not terrible, long as you keep them out of assaults, but itís a disappointment compared to what they used to be. Heavy Flamers are now more expensive, donít Grey Knights get Incinerators for less than what we do?!?
*The wording on dedicated transports is that ďanyĒ transport can be taken. So taking 20 footslogging girls and an Immolator is possible (as I interpret it). Shoot with Bolters sitting in cover while the Immo behind them shoots the Multi-Melta or Heavy Bolter? If the girls take losses and drop to 6 or less, pile them in the Immo and deny the KP. Just an idea.
Do: Take them in massive hordes when marching on foot. Hard to shift and itís a scary sight for the enemy. Roll them up in Rhinos like you used to in mechanised lists, but now youíll have to commit extra sisters to the job. 3+ and better is now harder to shift.
Donít: Assault them, nor overestimate them. Itíll take some getting used to the changes, but I think that they still perform reasonably well...
Verdict: Obviously, they have to be taken since theyíre Troops and 40k is mostly an objective game. Basically, theyíre cheaper now, but youíll need the bodies so take more.
Now with 2 (yes, 2!) fire points. Sweet, drive-bys just got possible . Same points costs as the Marine Rhinos, swapping the Searchlight for the Shield of Faith. Far as Iím concerned, weíve got better transports than the Smurfs now. Very happy about that. Take them as you used to, with Extra Armour (now with SoF), or take them cheaper and in more numbers (which is how the new mechanised seems to be leaning).
Same points costs as before. No longer a Heavy Support choice (only dedicated transport, makes no difference though), lost ďmay shoot as if a fast vehicleĒ which really sucks, no fire points (Ergh...). But it got SoF, and itís Heavy Bolter option is better now. Not all that happy about it. In a footslogging army you could take a few to roll down the flanks without the troops inside of them. Force the enemy to focus on the Immos bearing down on them while the rest of your army sets up its firebase. Other than that, I think weíll be seeing less of this iconic SoB vehicle. Iíll still take it with my Celestians in mechanised, but am less excited about the whole thing.
They got much, much cheaper which is freaking awesome, but their weapon load-outs have climbed up quite a bit as well. Overall, a positive. Essentially what they used to be, but now with Frag/Krak, kept their hit-and-run. Their Faith power is one of the powers Iíd actually work with (re-rolls on it is useful, 75% chance of working on faith). And the re-roll on SoF is useful too, actually means something. I think these gals have improved in the new list, they are more fragile than before, but are cheaper and taking them in larger units is quite viable now.
Do: Use them to take on higher Toughness troops with those re-rolls, 3 Attacks on the charge means that against weaker units they can quickly overrun them and cause havoc behind enemy lines.
Donít: Treat them like dedicated assault troops. Theyíre not. Theyíre still fragile, better than before, but that doesnít mean you should consider going toe-to-toe with anything half-decent. Hit-and-run can keep them out of some bad situations if you screw up though.
Verdict: Still useful and Iíd take them. Shame we canít run Canonessí with Jump Packs alongside them now, but the decent drop in points is more than welcome far as Iím concerned.
One of the few units with a good faith power, twin-linked weaponry will be useful to ward off the-curse-of-the-single-shot-weapon (I know I need it!). One point more than regular Battle Sisters, with Scout and better weapon options. I havenít had the chance to play-test with these girls yet, but Iím looking forward to it a lot. I think that thereís a lot of tactical options with this uni, looking forward to seeing what people come up with.
Do: Customise them to a role you need them for. 4 re-rolling wounds Flamers and a Combi-Flamer? Or 4 re-rolling hits Meltas and a Combi-Melta?
Donít: Let them get assaulted. Worse in assault than regular sisters (faith only works in shooting), and youíre investing a lot of points in them to shoot, not punch their way through the enemy.
Verdict: I think Iím going to enjoy these, and am looking forward to seeing more of them in the coming months. Good for their points, half-decent faith and improved on the old codex.
Well, they dropped in points, which is really good. But theyíre still wrestling with the Exorcist for Heavy Support slots. In footslogging armies, I think people will be taking a squad of them, but Iím not sure if I want them in my mechanised list. 17 points for a BS4 gal with a potentially Rending Heavy Bolter sounds good in my books. Faith is good here, and you no longer need to invest the points in the extra bodies to pull the faith power off (is that a positive in the new faith system? Wow... Just wow). Just like the Dominions, looking forward to seeing more of these in the future. Have to order in one more Heavy Bolter and Iím set...
Do: Use them shoot stuff. All the stuff. Whether itís armoured and you use faith, or you donít and you cut through 4+ like a scythe through wheat.
Donít: Just like Dominions, but less mobile, donít let them get assaulted. Put them in terrain with good line of sight and watch them clean up. Keep them safe.
Verdict: Looking forward to them, excited about the points drop and actually using faith once in a while now. This is one of the positives for the army.
I was surprised at the keeping of the Heavy D6. I expected it to be Heavy 3 or 4. Exactly as it was before, but now with SoF and free Smoke Launchers. Price of EA has gone up though... but really, this is still the crutch and staple unit that it has always been. Keep taking them, keep using them. Wonít bother with the rest, you know how it goes.
I was disappointed with this, I think that Penitent Engines could be a really good unit in the army, fluffy and iconic. But they are mostly the same as they used to be, some minor changes (positive ones...), but now theyíre fighting for HS slots with the Exorcist, and the new and improved Retributors. I just donít see any real place for them. Glad they donít have to shoot anymore (used to kill what they were going to assault), but rage means they can be dragged along by Eldar and never see combat. The new Battle Frenzy rule is good at least, would be nice to see these guys assault a massive unit of Ork Boyz, crush heaps of them (hoping you roll well, 2-7 attacks is good, even 4.5 as an average) and walk out of there without a scratch.
Do: Deploy correctly so you donít get screwed up with rage. Make sure you get the assault and watch them wreak havoc against the right troops and vehicles.
Donít: Let them get caught out by rage, or go toe-to-toe with something that can wreck AV11. I3 means they strike before powerfists, but youíll have to kill all of them before they strike or else youíre in trouble.
Verdict: Iíve always liked these, and while they have improved in a few ways, theyíre still not mind-blowing. I would like to run an Ecclesiarchy list with them in it, but unless Iím doing it for fluff, Iím not going to consider these over Exorcists.
Faith: Okay, some people seem to hate the new faith rules, and some people see both positives and negatives (Iím yet to know of anyone who actually prefers the new system compared to the old one). Overall we get more faith points in the game to work with, but itís down to chance and we canít calculate how we go. Roll a 6 in the first turn, and you waste most of it. Roll a 1 in the second or third turn, and watch as you wish youíd paid the points for Uriah Jacobus. Faith powers are no where near as good as they used to be. Footslogging lists (where theyíre more vulnerable to losing models in a unit) are more likely to pull off faith powers than mechanised lists. Over time, I think weíll learn to rely less on faith and simply see it as a bonus. Iím know Iím struggling to change and I was pissed off when I first read it, but after winning both of my newer games I feel like we can learn to win without it... Itís harder and it sucks, but possible I think (I hope...)
High priority powers: Repentia, Dominions, Retributors
Medium priority powers: Seraphim, Canoness (with the right unit)
Low priority powers: Battle Sisters, Celestians, Sororitas Command Squad (unless we try it out in a mechanised list, and with Heavy Bolters)
Shield of Faith: One of those free-across-the-board type of things. We are effectively cutting our losses from AP3 or better by 16.67%. And one sixth of vehicle damage results are being ignored when out in the open. Itís free, itís helpful, it pissed both of my opponents off, especially one of them when the only ďVehicle ExplodesĒ result I got on one of my Exorcists was ignored simply because the crew prayed. I donít think it makes up for the new faith system at all, but Iím glad we have it no matter what.
More than 4000 words... enjoy! Hope LO can handle it.
Last edited by Cannibal God; September 8th, 2011 at 06:58.
If someone helps you, rep them.
In a votewar you don't vote on a single match, you vote on the entire round. Got that?
oh fail. you got my hopes up that there was somehing new to read and your under construction.
Suffer not the heretic. That's right, I'm looking at you Astartes Librarians.
Celestine - Best viewed as a replacement for the old blessed weapon canoness, with the same irritating omission of hit and run, but hard to argue at the points.
Jacobus - Want death cultists? Buy Jacobus. It's only a pity he can't take them as a retinue.
Kyrinov - Power weapon confessor with a bunch of freebies. Might work with a celestian squad ... to a degree.
Confessor - Absolutely pointless unless you really want that extra eviscerator, buy Jacobus and/or Kyrinov instead.
Canoness - For almost as much as an SM commander she's a fairly meh in close combat, and doesn't really have any suitable squad to join. Dead weight compared to the named characters.
Command squad - If you pay the canoness tax then you get the option of this expensive mini-devastator squad. Note that it doesn't have a superior so relentless is hard to come by. Like the celestians you are paying marine prices for non marines, but at least they can do something different.
Battle Conclave - A cut down version of the GK's henchmen. Arcos bad, Cultists good, and a couple of crusaders (but not too many) can come in handy for absorbing hits when charging into cover. Beware the lack of anti-tank, frags, and armour on the unit - the whole army gets free grenades except the one unit that would actually use them ... typical of cut and paste codex creation.
Celestians - Poor in close combat, significantly overcosted. Little use beyond melta squads for when you've run out of fast attack squads for dominions.
Repentia - Have the option of being herded into a rhino on the first turn, which is useful. Will be pretty good in apoc games, still a bit of a dubious prospect in normal games. Note that adding a preacher/confessor slows them right down (no fleet).
Preacher - Of little real value at all, he's the priest from the IG codex made more expensive (an unfortunate theme of the dex) and without the ability to hide like the old one.
Dominions - Replace the double melta celestians of old, for effectively the same cost, but with scout. Sounds good.
Seraphim - Shootier against the little guys, not so good against big threats, and very very squishy. I'm not saying they are bad - the old seraphim were very expensive after all - but the new squad is a lot less finesse and a lot more kamikaze. Would be much improved simply by having up to date equipment costs for inferno pistols and eviscerators (from codex:GK), and of course init 4 - if for nothing more than improving their odds to escape combat after getting beaten up.
Battle Sisters - Compulsory selection. Cost has remained effectively unchanged since the last codex, but these new sisters lack the 'x' factor of their predecessors and are somewhat shaky in terms of moral. Not really suitable for foot rush, worse in close combat (point for point) than imperial guard, and fairly poorly suited to objective holding. Bland but functional, and not especially good with flamers anymore.
Rhino - The same metal box everyone else gets, but with a 6++ save. No upgrade options worth mentioning but a decent vehicle none the less.
Immolator - Same cost as the codex:SM heavy flamer razorback. The trouble is that the HF razorback was an overcosted and never taken option. Doesn't get any better with the bolters (25 points for a rerolling HB? Really?) and if you would direct your eyes to IA2 you'll note that the marines can also grab a multimelta razorback for half the cost. Avoid except perhaps for scouting suicide dominions.
Penitent Engine - Slightly tougher, slightly better armed, significantly slower, and a little more expensive. Not a good use of your heavy support slots in normal games.
Retributors - Start out cheap as heavy bolter fire support or a multimelta squad dropped nearer the table middle. Heavy flamers are really too expensive to be an attractive option. Extra models is probably a good idea as the squad needs it's superior to help with faith, and this is where the squad will start to get more expensive - especially if it's being used as anti-armour where it needs to get it's faith off to stand a chance. At least one squad will be popular with players who want to steal their rhino for repentia.
Exorcist - The same old exorcist, with a 6++. As ever it's the only real long-range anti-tank gun in the army and it's a gamble every time you shoot it - so take at least two, use the metal model, and abuse the LoS rules.
Dominators - Like dominions, but with four combi-flamer meltaguns in a squad of 5 and the ability to fire them as twin-linked heavy flamers with a faith point.
Fortress of Redemption - A steal for the points, especially as it doesn't use up an FoC slot, and the sister's only source of blast weaponry.
Last edited by A.T.; September 1st, 2011 at 17:29. Reason: getting rid of smilies
They're 11/11/10 now so "slightly tougher".
Still not worth it.
40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)
they were 11/11/10 in old dex too so nothing changed for that part. survivability did not change. they became meaner in cc with the ability to generate more attacks and two heavy flamers instead of two normal firing together as a heavy. and they got slower cause rage sucks. other than that they are no "tougher" than before.
Suffer not the heretic. That's right, I'm looking at you Astartes Librarians.
So they were. The point is, they're still so abysmally bad that it's not worth taking. Ever. Especially not over Exorcists or a cheap squad of Retributers. Yes, they're fluffy, but it's a grand example of when fluff gets in the way of function.
40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)