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"Greenwing" Dark Angels

15K views 20 replies 6 participants last post by  Ocelot99 
#1 ·
Good Afternoon Fellow Gamers,
I've been working on my Dark Angels for a bit now (as well as some divergence into successor chapters), and I was wondering about trying to reconcile Dark Angel fluff into Codex: Space Marines.

For example: Sternguard Veterans
In Codex: Space Marines, Sternguard make up a portion of the 1st Company. In the Dark Angels the first company takes the field in Terminator armor.
My idea was this:
Since there are analogues between the Sternguard and the Company veterans, have my company vets fill in as sternguard (Given the weapon options, they could act as jump-pack-less vanguard, but that isn't the purpose of this topic here). But, should all of the veterans come from the same company? Or should the company veterans be drawn from multiple companies? The Dark Angel codex indicates that each company veteran squad is from the same company. (So I would need a 5th Company veteran squad(s) for that role)

Another post I made mentioned bikers that were not part of the Ravenwing. I won't rehash that here, but it would be a thing, right?

I'm planning on my Dark Angel 5th Company to be built using Codex Space Marines, but I want to be true to the icons, fluff, and organization of the Dark Angels as much as possible, while still accessing some of the more interesting choices from the codex (Thunderfire cannons, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, Honor Guard,
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but AFAIK, veteran space marines are always found in the 1st company (unless they're veteran sergeants leading squads in other companies of course). That's the way it always used to be for codex chapters.

The deathwing I believe (like most other marine chapters) has access to power armour and Tactical Dreadnought Armour , so theorectically you could paint up deathwing in power armour. There are no rules to cover this since the 4th Edition codex DA stated that every member of the deathwing took to the field in Tactical Dreadnought Armour (Terminator Armour). Theorectically you could field Deathwing and use the company veterans rules for them.

Can't see any reason why you couldn't do this. The codex doesn't say you can't - and without the TDA, a DW veteran is the same as a Company veteran for games purposes. Hell, some of the Company Vet Sergeants are among the finest vets in the chapter - arguably better than some of their DW counterparts. (At least fluff-wise).

Someone will probably correct me - but there are precedents:

 
#3 ·
I agree.

Though fluff wise the PA Deathwing have been written out I see no real issue painting a veteran squad in deathwing colours.

It's just a return to the old style.

Some 'purists' may have issue but it is in the past and as shown above there is precedent in the old eavy metal sections of WD that have deathwing in PA.

Go for it! I think I would look awesome to see it.
 
#4 ·
The support is appreciated.

I like the way of this.

Very Respectfully,
--Forsaken
 
#5 ·
The Dark Angels vet company used to equip their marines in more standard war-gear options, only using terminator armour as/when the situation demanded. It was the incident with on their recruiting world when Cloud Runner fought the Genestealer cult that began the the Deathwing tradition.

If your successor chapter was founded prior to this event then there's no reason to think they wouldn't still use the traditional vet company organisation.

Apart from veteran sergeants, all chapter veterans would be in the 1st company. Infact, it's promotion to 1st company that grants the title 'veteran' .

Of course, this doesn't mean that there wouldn't be veterans fighting along side the other companies. Like the scout company, the veteran company rarely fights as a single force, (in most chapters anyway) instead squads are attached to other companies.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Not true on both accounts.The first company was always been fielded in full terminator armor after the heresy(dont know prior but i believe it was thus too).The deathwing(the then 1st company)became the enforcer of the inner circle.After the incident the only things that changed were the colour,the wing fetish and the fact that the first company was named the deathwing.

The veterans of the DA that are been deployed in power armor are a separate pool from the deathwing.Deathwing(first company)vets are always deployed in TDA and NOT in PA.The veterans in PA are called company veterans because they belong to their respective companies and not the Deathwing.The only account of deathwing members taking to the field in PA are the company masters,the chapter master,the master of the second and on times the interrogator chaplains and libbys.Likewise bone white PA armor was and is an artistic representation on the company masters armor.Codex has it in green though.

The only fluff/novel record that i know of bonewhite armor is during the angels of darkness novel.The members that had a battlefield promotion to deathwing(as if that can happen...anyway)and they painted their PA armor bonewhite.

Different helmets are an ultramarine/codex thingie and i would leave it at that.But you painted them top notch so keep them :).I like them.

There are no bikes and land speeders outside the second company,just as there are no terminators outside the first.The only members that can use those are again the afore mentioned high command staff,but the equipment is still a don from the second.

EDIT:Since we speak for DA lore you seem to have it wrong on the other two as well :p

As i said the veterans and the Deathwing are two different things.In the DA you can be the one without the other.The deathwing is not only the veteran first company.Its the military arm of the inner circles comprising the dark angels and their successors.Hence the difference between 1st company vet(term only)and company vet(PA only no deathwing membership).

On the final point thats true.But most likely they will be vets from their respective company unless something fishy is going on and the deathwing are deployed to clean a mess up.

Someone will probably correct me - but there are precedents
Yup,retconed ones though.That was most likely a mistake too.It wouldnt be the first time.The 'eavy metal team made the mistake of painting cyphers armor in DA green livery too.

At the end of the day its your DA.Want them with pink helmets?Do it.
 
#6 ·
In general the deathwing fluff now makes them into a specified role in the chapter instead of being the 1st company that helps the other companies in a bind.

They are now more seen to attack the fallen after the ravenwing have found them (typically) but given that finding fallen takes a long time it's little wonder they will operate in support of the regular companies as the need arises!

Paint em up so I can see what your scheme is! I think it will look sweet!
 
#7 ·
I think I have reached a sort of middle ground Toy Souvenir Plant Art Collectable


Notice the deathwing white of the helmets, and the ivy laurels. Signify veterancy, without going too full-tilt into an all deathwing color scheme.

Or should I go full-tilt and make them all white?
 
#8 ·
Looks pretty good! I think its a nice blend of the 2. I'd say go with whatever feels more comfortable to you. Its your army, paint as you choose. But if you are trying to stay fluffy and optimal between the 2 codexes, I think your doing a great job. Thumbs up from me... I too have DA/SM, pending on what setup I want to run.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Ok lets see this on one on one basis.First of all remember what i said.Paint them whomever you like them.
Second remember this,its a conclusion weve reached after debating on a lot of forums and there is some small indication in the codex itself:
Inner circle # Deathwing.Though some members are in both they are not one and the same.
So lets go

So, the command squad I created for Azreal in which each member is a veteran from a different company, with their company marking visible on their knee/greave (including bone white kneepad with the winged broken sword icon) would be unfluffy, since he is still a member of the deathwing/1st company, but has been seconded into the command squad?
Though the majority of his armor is green... I have debated having it all done in bone white, instead of just the knee.
Not entirely true.You see there is no indication in the fluff or in the codex from where those guys come from.They could be from the old company az served.They could be deathwing members serving as his command squad.They could be the best warriors of each company pooled together.We just dont know.However bone white in PA is still a no i believe.Fluffwise though you have free reign in this since there is nothing to suggest anything.

I'm not going to argue what the Black Library creates as far as fluff goes. They have a stable of authors, and I am certain things get tripped up in the continuity department. But, if somone uses a book as a reference to create something, I think it is perfectly legitimate. I wouldn't be so dismissive.
Even if they had survived that encounter... the recipients of the "Battlefield Promotion" would have been brought before the Inner Circle and judged. Those found wanting would be ... dealt with. (And Battlefield promotions happen all the time. though, admittedly, such promotions don't usually come with "Secret Knowledge" since rank can be taken away. Knowledge cannot.
We are on agreement here on both occasions,but remember this:They both have been elected to be in the deathwing but not the inner circle.So as you say if they survived they would be judged afterwards by Ezekiel.Also consider this:Nestor the apothecary was deathwing.The chaplain was too.The apothecary knew that the chaplain was an interrogator but the interrogator did not that apothecary was.So...who is the most senior here and who has the authority to make battlefield promotions?The circles within circles thing is complicated.Furthermore deathwing and inner circle status is not on par with a military rank in the DA chapter.It has to do with knowledge and the mental fortitude of keeping true to the chapter.
So a mind scrab or servitorisation can be a good outcome to someone who under duress discovers the secret and afterwards is judged unworthy.

Though, to be fair, all of the Companies other than the Deathwing/Ravenwing follow the Codex Astartes. Even though it is typically the robes that mark veterans and sergeants and such, I didn't want that to be the only identifying factor. Plus... having only sergeants and veterans wear the robes would get kind of monotonous after a while (Even though my tac marines seem to be falling into that trope thus far). Also, thanks for the kind words on the paintjob. I wanted something visually distinctive, and I think this fits the bill. Also, I've planned on making all of the subsequent 1st squad in each company as the company vets. So these guys can help "fill out" the company vet squads in the future when I am trying to add bodies, but not necessarily expensive wargear options.
Nothing definitive on what the robes signify.The codex says that it has something to do with rank but nothing special.Perhaps it is something to do with those members who know the of the secret,found worthy but have not elevated to deathwing status.General census is that they have been found worthy enough to hold the secret but,either they are not good/proven enough to be given terminator honors or they are need in their place due to their skills or even act as the eyes and ears of the circles within the rest of the chapter.
Bottom line:Do whatever you want with the robes.

I want to disagree on this one. Sure you claim that instances before have been Retconned, but I still don't think that you just "are that good" at being a biker to just jump straight into the Ravenwing. You have to hone your skills somewhere. So service in a bike squad in one of the Reserve companies does not seem out of the realm of possibility. "All Ravewing are bikers, but not all bikers are Ravenwing" Since, nominally, the Dark Angels are a codex chapter (except for 1st and 2nd company) they would have similar organization structure to their brother Chapters. Since their 6th and 7th companies have bikes and speeders, respectively. I could make the argument for their legitimacy. And, I know that the previous codex allowed for it.
The codex casts in stone at the organization diagram that all bikes and speeders are part of the second company period.Your answer here as to where the scout hones his skills is the scout company.It would be logical to assume that any brats that have an affinity for the saddle after the completion of their training are handed to the second by the master of the recruits.Remember that the ravenwing unlike their master and the deathwing do not know their objective.Sometimes they hunt the fallen and they dont know about it.
I will stress that again.The DA are not a codex chapter.They mirror the codex in order to maintain a facade that they disbanded the legion.
Hence what appears to be a codex organization in fact is not.Its very similar but its not.

You are absolutely right. I could paint all of my Dark Angels in floral print... But, I dont want to be purposfully antagonistic. And since I am forced to join and leave gaming groups on a regular basis since I am in the Military, I try to create as little of a disturbance as possible in my army composition. I want to be fluffy...but not constrained by it.
I dont like the green trim on the shoulder pads.Dont they have enough green on them already?So to signify fallen knowledge/inner circle membership i paint the lower part of the backpack exhausts and the trim of the shoulder pads of said members in gold.There is nothing like that said in the codex.I am a deviant?Maybe but i am not a fluff nazi either.I totaly feel you.So again do what you want.

Thank you for your time inputs. I'm stil working out some of the kinks as I go.

Very Respectfully,
--Forsaken
There is nothing to thank me about :).I am glad to be able to share some knowledge and debate with fellow unforgiven members!

Remember that most holes in our fluff are there on purpose.It adds to the mystery.So fill em however you like.
If you want to be as true to the fluff as you can i suggest you re-read the codex though.And if possible grab the old ones too.DA fluff is complicated to the point were all of our unforgiven brothers are deciphering things a bit different.Nothing straightforward as the other chapters.Which is as it should be IMHO.Thats why we are DA.We are paranoid secret keepers.
 
#12 ·
Could I just make it clear for all that the DA have both Deathwing Veterans and company veterans. Just so everyone is clear, each DA comapny holds it's own veteran squads (not just sergeants like codex chapters). This is in the codex if anyone wants to argue.

Thank you.
 
#13 ·
Cant seem to find that anywere.All i am seeing is the company vets unless i miss something.Both in the chapter org sheet and the army lists section.

In fact i cant see the term deathwing veteran anywhere too.To be a memeber of the deathwing one has to be both a peerless warrior and true to the chapter.So what the reason for it anyway?

In ages past(third ed),one could give his sarges terminator honors to make them deathwing vet sarges but that is a thing of the past.

Also in page 14:Members of the deathwing always fight in terminator armor and are never fielded in power armor as is the case with other chapters.
 
#15 ·
Cant seem to find that anywere.All i am seeing is the company vets unless i miss something.Both in the chapter org sheet and the army lists section.

In fact i cant see the term deathwing veteran anywhere too.To be a memeber of the deathwing one has to be both a peerless warrior and true to the chapter.So what the reason for it anyway?
Ah - this is my fault - I was careless with my language. All Deathwing Members are veteran marines that have been promoted to the first company. Is that better? I did not mean to suggest that there are "normal deathwing" and "deathwing veterans".

What I meant was that unlike codex chapters who normally promote to the 1st company when a marine gains veteran status, the DA have a veteran status within every company before the 1st company. In essence they have TWO levels of veteran status. This of course has nothing to do with sergeants.

I felt like I should point that out because as I'm sure you agree, they may be people out there reading this who aren't familiar with the differences in the codex space marines and codex DA and might get confused with the fact that their are effectively two kinds of "veteran" within a DA army. (i.e. A Company Veteran and a Deathwing Marine). Sorry if I created more confusion.

Also in page 14:Members of the deathwing always fight in terminator armor and are never fielded in power armor as is the case with other chapters.
That's true. This has changed since previous DA lists. In the past it has been perfectly possible to field power-armoured Deathwing (as the marine above shows). I believe this was "replaced" by the Company Veterans Squads in the last codex (I'm not sure if the DA had Company Veterans before this).

In any event - I see no problem AT ALL in fielding "counts as" Company veterans in deathwing livery. Who really cares as long as they're game legal in stat terms. It's pretty obvious they're meant to represent veterans of one sort or another and (as there cannot be more than one sort of power-armoured vets in the current codex) I doubt they'd be confused with anything else.

So to return to the OP's query - yes you should be able to field your vets in bone white armour. Can I suggest you leave off the deathwing symbols and paint their robes dark green to contrast the bone armour. That should satisfy the most "rabid" fluff-addicts out there.
 
#16 ·
We are in agreement in everything mrfox.Indeed it is a difficult army to comprehend fluffwise,but thats what i like in them.

Anyways,what i point out is for the sake of fluff understanding.As i said before paint them pink,as long as you enjoy it and have fun with it nobody has a say in the matter.
 
#17 ·
Just a little side note here.

The deathwing has been known as the deathwing since before the mission led by cloud runner.

Their drop ship (thunder hawk) is also called deathwing, the only changes made to the deathwing following that mission was the painting of the deathwings armour to white as a remembrance of that battle.

Really company veterans are probably a unit of DA that are being watched by the company master to watch and then forward them for possible induction to the deathwing.

I think in the second edition codex there were power armour vets for DA, I'll check later as its at home.

But I think the model shown is from late rogue trader days, the fluff then was very ummm not sure of the wording but it isn't what is today eh?!

But I really think no one is going to give you a hard time for a successor founding have bone colored veterans.

And if they do, well too bad they need a dash of concrete to help them harden up! ;P

Please post images when you're done.
 
#18 ·
Just a little side note here.

The deathwing has been known as the deathwing since before the mission led by cloud runner.

Really company veterans are probably a unit of DA that are being watched by the company master to watch and then forward them for possible induction to the deathwing.
Not to sound a fluff despot,cause i do it for my shake alone,but....references for those above?
 
#19 ·
pilot00 said:
Not to sound a fluff despot,cause i do it for my shake alone,but....references for those above?
The deathwing short story. They refer to themselves as deathwing and that deathwing ( the thunder hawk) is also taken to be something of a mythical creature to them, just as a side note.

And the the short story from the tales of darkness horus heresy novel.

Also the DA codex refers to cloud runners unit as deathwing and that the armour was painted white in memory of the sacrifice the thirty odd members of the unit that were killed during the mission. And I think the venerable dreadnaught said something about cloud runner bringing honour to the deathwing by memory.

There is always the chance I have remembered this incorrectly but I'm sure in the Horus heresy short story the terminators are referred to as deathwing.

Please let me know if I've misinterpreted the books incorrectly.

Cheers!
 
#20 ·
The deathwing short story. They refer to themselves as deathwing and that deathwing ( the thunder hawk) is also taken to be something of a mythical creature to them, just as a side note.
The shuttle was already called the Deathwing. Named after the plains world belief (probably started the belief) in the fiery bird that carried off the souls of the dead. The tribal ritual of the Deathwing was where warriors about to go to their deaths prepare themselves for death by painting themselves white, the funeral colour.

They thought they were going on a suicide mission, in preparation, they underwent the deathwing ritual and painted their armour white. Thus becoming the first Deathwing terminators.

The battle against the Genestealer cult is the first battle they fought as the "Deathwing".
 
#21 ·
SkyDog said:
The shuttle was already called the Deathwing. Named after the plains world belief (probably started the belief) in the fiery bird that carried off the souls of the dead. The tribal ritual of the Deathwing was where warriors about to go to their deaths prepare themselves for death by painting themselves white, the funeral colour.

They thought they were going on a suicide mission, in preparation, they underwent the deathwing ritual and painted their armour white. Thus becoming the first Deathwing terminators.

The battle against the Genestealer cult is the first battle they fought as the "Deathwing".
That's right!!! Lol

I was starting to get the feeling that would be the case, though I'm sure it's used earlier....

Ah well, thanks for the reminder!
 
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