Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Greetings to my fellow Commanders!
I am in need of your wisdom, accumulated in millenia of battle. I have only played a few skirmishes so far with the stuff already painted (about 500-750 pts), but i think that my original build plan may have to be reconsidered. As the title suggests, i'm on a tight budget, so i started with Assault on Black Reach & the Battleforce, thinking that it was good to have a wide variety of models at reasonable cost. However, most of my opponents seem to play with only a few units they then multiply to get to 1500 pts, the level i'm hoping to reach. I think that experience is more important than army build, but could it be that the "2 or 3 of each" works better?
I present you my current list under construction. I was hoping i could use every model in those sets, and also all of the stuff i bought on Ebay, but my mind is more open than that of the Imperial Inquisition. My gratitude for whatever advice you are willing to bestow!
captain, power sword + hellfire rounds, 125 pts
5 tactical marines, 90 pts
razorback, twin-linked heavy bolters + storm bolter + dozer blade, 55 pts
10 tactical marines, missile launcher + plasma gun, 180 pts
rhino, dozer blade, 40 pts
10 tactical marines, plasma cannon + flamer, 175 pts
rhino, dozer blade, 40 pts
5 scouts, heavy bolter (with hellfire shells), 85 pts
dreadnought, multi-melta + heavy flamer, 115 pts
drop pod, locator beacon, 45 pts
5 terminators, 200 pts
5 assault marines, power sword, 115 pts
3 attack bikes, 3 multi-melta's 150 pts
predator, autocannon + heavy bolters, 85 pts
My local metagame is dominated by marines, orks & tyranids. I chose heavy bolters to deal with cc hordes, plasma weapons to threaten anything in power armour, melta to punch through av, and transports for every infantry unit. I don't have a playstyle as of yet, instead i find myself adapting to my opponents. If they outnumber my plastic men with cc hordes, i sit back on high ground and try to shoot as much of them as possible before they reach me. My transports i use then to create a wall, only leaving a few narrow passages so they can only send in a handful of models at a time. When they have a shooty army, i deepstrike the dread, using the locator beacon to guide in the termies & assault marines in subsequent turns, & hope they survive until reinforcements in transports arrive, moving flat out, & popping smoke.
current Chapter Master of the Gorgon Bearers
Last edited by stephanus; January 7th, 2012 at 12:06.
One predator is going to attract a lot of enemy fire and die quickly. I would drop the five assault marines and get another pred, autocannon and las sponsons, and try and get some power fists on the tactical sergeants. Dropping the dozer blades from the Rhinos would free up a few point to help. But thats nitpicking from someone who has taken fifteen years trying to decide on my chapters name. Gorgon beareres has a nice ring to it.
Jager bombs. Very efficient at wiping out friend or foe.
Agree to this,and why are you painting ultreamarines in the tale of painters then?
Praise be to the Emperor!!
Well, if you're looking at straight up competitiveness, MSU spam always works better. It's the difference between specialization and generalization, specialization being easier and superior in inexperienced hands. Plus, it pretty much ensures you take the best of everything (best special weapon, best heavy choice, etc) and ignore the rest. It will win you games, but not as necessarily as fun (depending on your definition of fun) or fluffy. Thing optimize your enjoyment, you really need to fit in to your meta. If you're building a completely fun list, you're not going to have fun being steamrolled playing in a highly competitive environment. If you're bringing nothing but internet A-lists, nobody in a fluffy bunny store is going to want to play against you.
You'll find in certain stores, tournament play is all that matters, and you'll see nothing but redundant lists. Considering one of the armies you're playing against is tyranids (a force that internet wisdom says is flat out horrible), I can't imagine you're playing in too competitive an environment.
Also, the advice I'll give you is going to be based around building a wide-ranged, fun and fluffy list, while trying to utilize as much of what you've already bought as possible. If you want more competitive, don't take my advice and listen to other folk.
With Black Reach and a Battle Box, you can actually stretch your marines pretty far. My main question is: how much of the battleforce box have you assembled so far? There are ways to stretch out that box a little bit (like using the 5 "spare" bolter marines as sternguard). If you have put them together using basic super glue, you can always break them apart by putting the models in the freezer. The extreme cold will make the super glue brittle (the plastic too, so be careful).
Some things to think about your current list:
When you have a single drop pod, it must come in first time. In fact, it will typically be the closest thing to your opponent, the only thing in range of all his guns, and it's all alone. So whatever you drop in your pod is going to have one turn of shooting, and then be blown up. Same with the drop pod if it's a big enough threat (like being the bridge that brings in your termies and assault marines). This segues well into the following...
If something's worth taking, it's worth taking a lot of. This doesn't mean you have to spam the same item, but a little redundancy is crucial. When one dread is dropped on your enemy's flank, he has a simple target, but when two are dropped, suddenly he's forced to make decisions. When you have a single tank, all his missiles have one place to go. With two tanks, and he's torn. It gives you a spare, so when the first is destroyed (and it will be destroyed), you can still act with your second one.
But going back to what you got, and starting from there.
Effectively, you have the following:
Captain w/ boltgun, power weapon
10man tac squad, sgt w/ no upgrades, flamer, missile launcher
terminators w/ no upgrades (sgt with power weapon, everybody else with power fists, all storm bolters)
Dread w/ multimelta, dccw, storm bolter
15 marines w/ 1 upgrade sprue (1 ea special weapon, 1 missile launcher, and some plasma pistols)
5 assault marines
5 non-sniper scouts (all loadouts for scouts except cloaks and sniper rifles)
The downside to this is that you can't really make a competitive list, since you lack transports. Right now mech is king, and to be super competitive everything needs to be a vehicle of some sort, even if it's just sitting inside it. But don't fret, as you can still have quite a good time with a footslogging list, but just be aware that, in the future, you can't go wrong expanding by picking up more razorback sets. As a note, always pick up razorback sets, as it costs you $5 more and will build you both a rhino and a razorback.
The other downside is that you have some less than optimum squads in there. Once you get further into the game and have more models, you probably won't be getting much use out of your termies, or your scouts. That doesn't mean you can't use them now, just to get you started.
Honestly, the best advice I can give you is to proxy, proxy, proxy. Testing out every model in the codex before you buy them is the only way you're going to find out what works best for you and what you enjoy playing the most.
Using what you currently own, I would put together a list something like this:
140 - Captain w/ boltgun, hellfire rounds, artificer armour, power weapon
125 - 5xSternguard
105 - Dreadnought
235 - 10xTac marines w/ powerfist, meltagun, missile launcher, rhino
170 - 10xTac marines w/ flamer, missile launcher
85 - 5xScouts w/ cc weapon&bolt pistols, h.bolter&hellfire rounds, power weapon
125 - 5xAssault marines w/ jet packs, power weapon, flamer
As a note: sternguard are usually differentiated from normal marines by a different coloured helmet and more bling. So you can take some normal bodies, and just spruce them up and they'll make some decent veterans. An easy way to stretch your points out of your initial purchase.
The idea behind this is that your captain and sternguard are your monster hunters (shooting monstrous creatures or high toughness warbosses), you have one tac squad (with the meltagun) and a dread to hunt tanks, and use assault squad to find soft targets to attack with their power weapon. The scouts are your ace-in-the-hole. They'll fold to a stiff wind, so you don't want them to actually fight anything that will fight back (but there's a power weapon in there just in case), but their purpose is to outflank and try to steal/contest objectives in the backfield late game.
As you expand, throw in your terminators and pick up transports for your "command squad" and other tac squad. Going forward to 1500pnts, add in stuff you like. If you want dakka tanks (which are good options versus orks and tyranids), toss in a couple autocannon/h.bolter predators. Once you're at 1500pnts, start replacing the things you don't like or aren't pulling their weight with things you do.
Wow, that ended up being a lot longer than I thought.
Yes, they will carry the severed head of Medusa on their shoulder pads. Space Marines are the monster killers of the 41st millenium, just as Perseus was a monster killer of ancient greek mythology. And he was the son of Zeus, like the Marines are descendants of the God-Emperor. The fluff i came up with is that they operate in zones where two or more enemies of Mankind are fighting amongst themselves. Let them xenos do some of the dirty work, then finish off the survivors. They aren't held in high regard by their fellow chapters because of this, but to hell with it.
I have only finished Assault on Black Reach & the stuff from Ebay so far (the 2 extra rhino's, the razorback, attack bikes, drop pod & predator). The Battleforce has yet to be opened.
About extra predators: in fact, i had bought two of them on Ebay, originally, the other being the 3-las configuration, but the modelling had been done so poorly (even below my standards), that i didn't bother saving it. got me the attack bikes instead.
About the drop pod: the same thought had occurred to me, this is why i added the locator beacon, so that the assault & termie marines might lend him a helping hand. Seems i will have to reconsider. I have not given up on the idea of a "hammer & anvil" kinda approach though, where my opponent has to face two threats coming from different directions.
About dozer blade removal: yeah, you're right, i could knock them off easily, without ruining the models, & it would give me another 15 pts to play with. It's a shame though, they made the transports look more like something out of Mad Max movies. Chaos vehicles look sooooo much better!
About power fists/weapons for the tactical sergeants: i'd not given them any, because i figured they could just sit on an objective, ocasionally letting the heavy & special weapon guys fire out of the top hatch. It seemed to be a waste of points to give the sarges a power weapon they might not be using. Definetly something to think about.
I play for fun, but losing a lot isn't always so funny, ha ha.
I notice that the plasma weapons seem not to be very popular among you, is that because of the 'gets hot' rule?
Thanks a lot for the feedback guys, i appreciate it! I especially like the trick with the freezer, i'd never heard about that!
Power weapons are nice (and you'll have two from the assault marine sprues in your battleforce box). If I remember my mathhammer right, when fighting against MEQs (which make up 50% or more of armies out there), 1 sergeant with a power weapon will cause as many unsaved wounds on a marine squad as the remaining 9 guys. Your wounds in assault are going to come from your power weapons, not from your chainswords.
So, in a nutshell, you take power weapons to kill foot soldiers, and you take power fists to kill everything else. Normally, you would give your assault sergeant a power fist as well, but for the list above I said give him a power weapon for the following reasons: 1) a power fisted tac sergeant will always be used, forever and ever, as you'll use those tac squads far longer than you'll use those assault marines and 2) assault marines, by virtue of being jump infantry, can pick their fights a lot better, they can stay far enough away to avoid being charged and only go for targets where they'll do the most damage.
Then you compare it to your other options, like the meltagun, and really the meltagun does better for most things. Meltaguns pen vehicles (this is huge considering how prominent vehicles are), are assault weapons (so you can cc if you chose), and can insta-gib most multi-wound models (like HQs). Mostly, the plasmagun allows marines to do what they do a little better (more killing versus infantry), but the meltagun allows them to that plus adds a whole level of versatility. And all this for a cheaper price. Basically, it's the same arguments of powerfists over power weapons.
Not to say that plasmaguns don't have their place, but for the most part, you can't go wrong with picking up meltaguns over plasmaguns.
Yes, the bikes are all multi-melta. I showed my preliminary list to a friend who commands a bunch of Greenskins, and he said that against his guys i could pull off a stunt, but struggle against more heavily armored foes. the land raiders you mentioned and the likes. So i got me 3-las pred first, hated the way it had been glued together, went for the bikes instead.
Your remarks about the plasma weapons got me thinking. I read that on vehicles, the gets hot rule doesn't apply. Do you see it being of any use on the dread? Lose the pod, give the dread a missile launcher too, to turn it into long range fire support? Just a thought.
I suppose i could drop the dozer blades & replace the plasma with melta for the tac squads, that would give me the points for an extra power fist.
As pilot said, Gets Hot! does not effect vehicles. If you're interested in doing a p.cannon/m.launcher dread, proxy it a time or two. My experience with them has been real hit and miss (mostly miss, you'd be amazed how often scattering 8" away lands the blast template in my own troops). And I really wish it fired more than one missile, or at least just twin-linked the missile. You'd have to ask others their experience with them, as they've probably had better luck. I often doubt if my scatter die has a "hit" mark on it at all.