Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Heya, nice forum here. It looks like people can disagree without accusing each other of microwaving one's favorite puppy.
For me, I'm interested in playing IG again, once Santa is kind enough to drop off my 4th ed. Rulebook and new Codex. I played IG about three years ago, and have a 3K Steel Legion PDF-style army. I really like the new models, though, so I do plan on building a new force out of the new plastics, but that is a long-term project, of course.
I was kind of surprised to see how screening of troops has dissapeared in the new ed., and I've been reading how it's a problem for people to keep their command squads alive now. So, I was thinking about mounting mine in a Chimera.
Now, the reason behind this is since they have also changed the mobility/weapons fire rules in 4th ed., I would like to make a more mobile, but still infantry-based IG army, with no doctrines, just a plain-vanilla force. So, my concept is that I will have a "platoon" of three Leman Russ' as the spearhead of my force, with infantry troops and Sentinels moving along the flanks of the tanks. Then, I was thinking about having a second echelon of Chimera-mounted troops moving along behind the Leman Russ', in part to protect their rear arc, and in part to provide a reaction force to support my infantry. I think that a capable command squad with power weapons and Commissar would be a decent reaction force for CC actions, and their position in the army would make them less vulnerable to shooting by the enemy, as they will be screened mostly by the Russ', and I would expect most enemy AT fire to be directed at the Russ' anyhow.
Now, the strengths of this army would be good flexibility, as it could move or sit still as necessary, good shooting, as it could lay down a volley of battle cannon shots on expensive targets, plus lots of multi-las fire, has a decent response if it is engaged in CC (Command Squads for some killing, Sentinels for tar pits), and has a decent mix of concentration of force (Russ' and dispersion of targets (Guard infantry and Sentinels). The weaknesses of this army would be a potentially lower model-count compared to some IG armies, as I will be spending points on tanks and tooling my characters. Also, I don't plan on going overboard with heavy weapons teams either, as I don't plan to stand and shoot too much, although I do plan on providing a mix of the more versatile ones (missile launcher, heavy bolter) to my infantry, as I plan on assigning most AT duties to the Russ'. Obviously, if an opponent can knock out all of my Russ' in the first two turns, I'm hurting, but with Armor 14 to the front, and plenty of troops on the sides, it seems like a reasonable enough gamble.
So, a few questions now. Does the command squad still maintain its command radius while in a vehicle? Are Sanctioned Psychers really that bad, given that they are so cheap (I haven't seen the powers list yet, but I think I could comfortably gamble at that price)? Are Priests really so suicidal (it seems strange to put such a thing in the IG army)? Are Conscripts affected by the LD radius? If so, are they any good?
first off, if i were you, i'd take some doctrines.
since it looks like you don't want to spend too much on your infantry, take close order drill since it's free
priests are not as bad as people think. they're actually not bad at all, if you give them the right stuff. an eviscerator can come in handy easily.
sanctioned psykers can be decent if you give one the honorifica imperalis and a force weapon
i would look into using conscripts because they would up your models count but still be usable. you can easlily throw them into a tooled up space marine command squad and tie down that squad for a couple turns
Member of the Fluffmasters Clan
Well, when I glanced at the Doctrines page of the book, it looked like most of the restricted things were things that I would like to consider taking, like Sanctioned Psykers, whereas the benefits didn't really seem to be that significant, especially as in many cases you had to pay more for your troops for the benefit, which to me, seems antithetical to the idea of the IG. Now, I could see creating a whole army theme out of it being a Drop regiment or a Light regiment, but that's not really what I'm interested in doing.
Yes, I really like the idea of an Eviscerator. I don't know about that upgraded Psyker, unless I plan to face a lot of Daemon armies. It seems to me a power-fist Comissar would be more generally useful.
Yes, I think that the Conscripts would be great for feeding to hard-core enemy CC units like Terminators. The funny thing about units like Terminators is that they inflict about the same amount of casualties, whatever they are fighting, so they could do well killing Chaos Space Marines but would have a hard time making their points back against Conscripts. If, for example, they could kill eight per turn, then they could break through in about six turns, eh? The Conscripts can use the LD-radius of the officers, though, yes?
So, army concept, good? Command Squad in Chimera, good?
I'm getting fonder of the Mobile Guard army, as many have seen my posts. If some CC abililty is wanted, the only Characters I would use would be embedded Commissars. You don't want anybody that we be tageted in CC, so the Fists on the Commissar, while epensive, can take out their points cost, If he can last 3-4 rounds.
The only problem of a command squad in a Chimura is that it can be a bit more of a target, I prefer Cameoline and Light Infantry to make sure they hang out behind some cover, Lob ( yes generally innefective ) Mortar rounds.
If you are going to lead with the tanks, I would seriosly consider Demolishers. They are expensive, but they last. Side 13 Armour is definatly an upgrade. Give them Extra Armour as well.
Generally I like the concept though. Consider Grenadiers, and mounting a couple of squads of Stormies with a couple of Plasma Rifles.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
I disagree on my fellow Generals ideas of having to get the Doctrines. Now, I use Doctrines with my army, but that's cause I wanted Drop Troops. But a plain old Imperial Guard Army is the tried and true. You can still use pyschers and commissars and priests. They are still just advisors.
I like your idea of a mobile IG force. Flexibility is key with any army and by adding mobile troops to the IG is one of the best ways to do it. It is probably the only way I can think of to take table quarters with infantry (armored fist) since you would otherwise have to march there and then fight to take it (standard inf platoon). With a Tank backing you up, even just a chimera, you can get into the fight much faster with more firepower. Rapid Fire lasguns can make swiss cheese out of alot of stuff fairly quickly!
I also like the idea of conscripts, but thier usefulness in a vanilla army might not be as good. I might be wrong, but I think you'd have to place at a minimum two other commissars in the army before you could add one to the conscript platoon. (CHQ +1, InfHQ +1, Conscripts +1).
I like Powerfist Commissar or Powerfist Officer (I have one of both) but strength 6 still isn't too tough. I would almost rather have a power weapon so I can fight on the initiative rather than last.
Anyway, good luck forming up that army. For the Emperor!
182nd Cadian Para Infantry Reg
E Company Commander
3rd Company, White Templars
Shas'O Dal'yth Shi'Or'es
IVth Dal'yth Hunter Cadre
Keeping your command Chimera behind your Battletanks should keep it safe, and you dont need to worry about the leadership radius if you invest in a Master Vox and voxes for your squads.
I am the Aquila-Guerilla!
although there is no "offical" ruling that i'm aware of. i play it that the command radius does NOT work while in a chimera. simply because the model is no longer actually on the board.
but even if it did. in a mechanized list you either wanna go MasterVox (then Ld radius doesn't matter), or Vet Sgt & COD.
in all you infantry sqauds you should take lascannons, as the biggest weakness in the list you're describing is antitank. you have plenty of antiinfantry, but you'll need some lascannons (and the one's on tanks don't count).
doctrines? COD, Mechanized, Iron Disp, those would be your most important, then just buy back two units like RRiders or Stormies.
Wow, there's been really thoughtful and helpful replies here. Thanks, guys.
Well I started to build up the list on Army Builder, but I'll really have to wait on getting the Codex before I can really finish it. I can also tell that my initial plan may be a bit too ambitious, so I may have to scale it back a little. So far, I'm at 1120 points, which is just for the "bare-bones" of
Attached Sentinel Squad of 3
2x Infantry Platoon
3x Leman Russ w/ Lascannons
And this is before I add any special or heavy weapons, or Chimeras, or Comissars. Who says Chaos is the only army that doesn't get to include all of the toys it wants to? Still, I don't have any units over 160 points yet, which is good. Heck, a squad of plain Space Marines would almost cost that. So, I'll see what kind of toys I can add with what I have left. Hey, I just added the three Chimeras, and it only bumped the price up to 1330 points. Sweet! That's still 470 points left for upgrades, right?
I also noticed on AB, that the Russ' have the option for sponson heavy flamers. I'm thinking that that is pretty appealing for the kind of army I am building, as I plan to move forwards anyhow, plus, the HF don't use the IG Ballistic Skill, and it's kind of fun to imagine the sheer cruelty of placing six heavy flamer templates down in one turn (I love the smell of roast xenos in the morning! This would be especially nice to do in a Bunker Assault mission, if Flamers still hit everyone inside of a bunker. Plus, I think that this would make the Russ' more of a threat than the heavy bolters would, and that they would then draw more fire away from my Chimeras.
So, the idea is that the army would advance in a double-echelon (heck, Guard is too big to move in a single rank anyhow, eh?) In the first echelon are the Russ' and the Conscripts, then moving behind them are the Chimeras, Sentinels and the Infantry. Now, it's unlikely that the Conscripts will do anything heroic, but they can at least guard the flanks of the tanks by their sheer physical presence, plus, they'll soak a few hits from the enemy units that do fail their LD tests to shoot at far targets. So, I have the Russ' blasting a goodly-sized hole in the enemy line and a lot of junk troops moving towards that hole. Meanwhile, the second echelon is helping things along with 18 multilaser shots per turn, picking off the fast, light vehicles that might be a threat to the Russ', while the infantry shoots up anything that gets too close. When it does come down to CC, the Conscripts will hopefully take the inital blow. Then, I have three choices. First, if its a really monster CC unit, like Chaos Terminators, they conscripts can die while the rest of the army moves off. The infantry fall back while the tanks move away. Second, if there's a lot of them, but they're weak, the Infantry can take them on with Sentinel support, or the Sentinel can just tie them up while the Infantry advances. Third, if they are decently strong, like vanilla Marines, one or two of the Chimeras can peel off and dump their CC troops to help. I was amazed at how cheap a power weapon is for a Junior officer. Whoo-hoo! This way, too, I shouldn't have to worry about people shooting my command squads. Really, if you had three Russ' with HF and three Chimeras coming at you, which would you shoot first?
Naturally, I don't know all of the new missions yet, but this seems like an army that can move or shoot as needed, while still maintaining a good model count and taking advantage of the strengths of the IG, because if there's one thing I have learned about this game, it's that you don't do yourself any favors by trying to emulate the fighting style of another army. Do what you do best, and do it well.
The new rules for Independent Characters really seem to punish big critters like Greater Daemons, as most HQ units can just take a retinue and remove the IC status from themselves. It suits me fine, so yes, I really like the idea of the Comissar with the fist. In my old IG army, I had one with a Master-Crafter Fist in my Command HQ, and he was always tearing up stuff like Orc Bikes, and the last time I played him, I think that he killed four Space Marines on the last move of the game, much annoying my opponent. It seems like a Priest would be good here as well, but I have seen a post that said that the Priest makes your characters always move towards the enemy, which seems suicidal to me. Having said that, it looks like the Enginseer doesn't get the same status as a Comissar as far as IC goes, so I can see why these would be less desirable. I didn't plan on attaching a Comissar to the Conscripts. I expect them to die, so why throw a Comissar away with them?
Oh yeah, Demolishers are nice, and I'm pretty sure it would make most players bite their nails a bit to see three Demolishers rolling at them. Really, though, I see these as being more of an Engineer Tank than a Main Battle Tank, fluffwise, and I really don't want to put any more points into my tanks than I already am, as they are still single models and certain things can knock them off very quickly.
It looks like the Conscripts can't take a Vox, which means that if I can't use my LD radius when inside a Chimera, then there is no sense in taking them, as they will run away too quickly. I'm surprised that there has been no ruling on this question, as we were asking it years ago. Really, though, I think if it came down to it, I would argue that the LD-radius is the standard rule, and that LD-radius dissapearing when the Leader stepped inside a Chimera would be an exception to that rule, and thus would have to be specifically stated in the book, otherwise we would just continue to play the standard rule, IMO.
The Anti-Tank issue is a tough one. Like Dispel Dice in WFB, you never really know how much AT you need until you see your opponent's list. So let's talk about that. We can really classify "Tanks" into three kinds of vehicles: Light, those with Armor 10 and/or open tops, Medium, those with armor 11-12, and Heavy, those with armor 13-14. Now, I'm really good against Light and Medium Vehicles, as I have plenty of Multilas fire and I'll probably throw in some Autocannons as well, just to mix it up. Plus, if it comes down to it, I probably have plenty of weapons in the Infantry that can take down those vehicles. Now, when it comes to Heavy Targets, yes, those require different weapons to deal with. Now, I have three Battle Cannons and three Lascannons on my Russ', and I don't see why those shouldn't count, because, I have to ask, how many Heavy vehicles am I likely to face, and how much damage are they going to be able to do to me? So how many more points would it be economical for me to spend on AT weapons?
Now, my old IG army had a lot of Lascannons in the infantry, and I really liked them there, but for this army, I don't want to do that, because if I spend all those points on Lascannons, then I'm just going to end up sitting still and shooting like last time, which I don't want to do. Heck, a Missile Launcher is only 15 points, so I'm not going to cry if I don't get to fire it during the game, but the Lascannons come close to costing as much as half of the squad, so I'd be cheating myself if I didn't use them. Lascannon Sentinels are out, as they would be popped, instantly I'd imagine, but I think that there are plenty of other options out there like:
1. Tooling a Command Squad as tank hunters. According to AB, I could give a Command Sqaud four Meltaguns and give the Officer a Meltabomb. Since they're already in a Chimera anyhow, they'd be a good unit to roll up and snuff a tank with.
2. Less tooling, but just including Priests with Eviscerators and Officers with Meltabombs in the Command units. Again, I'm already moving forwards and providing targets more interesting than the Chimeras (Russ', so it should be OK. Besides, if my opponent does target the Chimeras, that's just more turns for my Lascannon Russ' to shoot him.
3. Finally, I was thinking of upgrading one of the Russ to a Vanquisher. I like the look of the model from Forgeworld (you can just buy it as a kit, I think, which makes it cheaper) and that would be fun and in character. Plus then the tank could be BS 4, yes? And yes, that is more points in tanks, but it so extremely cool that it would get an Inquisitorial Dispensation .
So, those are some options that would work well for my army. Thoughts?
HeavyFlamer sponsons = BAD IDEA!!
they sound good on paper. but it's the simple fact that you'll never be able to hit with both of them. and since you have to fire everything at one target, if you *ever* fire them, you'll always be wasting 1 HF.
if you really want sponsons on a Russ (i use em) take HBs and hull HB. if your battlecannon goes down, 3 HBs can still pose a threat and do some damage (mobile HW squad).
i love my Demolisher. hull LC w/ PC sponsons all the way. yeah they cost a lil more, but they're fluffy (they're part of the company not from armoro div.) and once you kill a deamonprince w/ 1 shot from a demolisher cannon... it's true value become clear
I also like the demolisher, perhaps in your eschelon formation, the demolisher could be the "point" of the tank line.
The Missile Launcher is one of the best Heavy Weapons in my opinion. Sure it isnt the best at taking out Armor 14, but thats something you should leave to your tanks (especially a demolisher). The Missile Launchers versitility is hard to match and in my opinion not too expensive. If you do not know what you will be facing off against, take Missile Launchers.
PS: I would count the leadership radius from the center of the Chimera if a Commander was inside, and I think most people would agree that there are no rules against it and therefore should not have too much of a problem with it.
I am the Aquila-Guerilla!