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Here we have the data from a spread sheet designed to show the results betweeen 15 Kroot Carnivores shooting against 7 Tactical Space Marines with just bolters. We assume that the Kroot shoot first simply for the sake of argument. This does not feel right to me and I was wondering if anyone could tell me that my math is wrong, please no posts about getting into melee because there the Kroot win more.
Space Marines
Number Bs Strength Toughnes Save Hits Wounds
7 4 4 4 3 4.666666667 3.111111111
Kills kills/guy
3.111111111 0.444444444
Number Bs Strength Toughnes Save Hits Wounds
15 3 4 3 None 7.5 3.75
Kills kills/guy
1.25 0.083333333
Rounds
Space Marines Remaining
1 2 3 4 5
5.75 5.75 4.712962963 4.712962963 3.85048011
6 7 8 9 10
3.85048011 3.130607631 3.130607631 2.526683583 2.526683583
Rounds
Kroot Remaining
1 2 3 4 5
15 12.44444444 12.44444444 10.34979424 10.34979424
6 7 8 9 10
8.638469745 8.638469745 7.247088576 7.247088576 6.124118095
It should be noted that, when the Space marines get the first turn of firing, they do come out ahead after five rounds, and that if continued over about 10 game rounds, the Space Marines are actually more likely to come out victorious.
However, after six game rounds of firing, the Space Marines will have notably failed to kill the Kroot (even though the Kroot are out in the open and devoid of saves) which I think will tend to bely common impressions of both the Kroot and GW's beloved Marines.
statistically, you cal mumbo jumbo with number al you want, but it all depends on your dice rolls in the game, not what some computer spat out at you. Of course, you can use statistical averages to work out whats more likly to kill something, ie a lascnonn or a missle laucnher against different armor values, but this is jsut way to advanced for what we need. If you get good dice rolls, the marine were in RF distance, they could wipe out maybe 10 or 12 kroot. maybe they could only manage 5 or 6. it really all dependson your dice rolls on that day in the game. your avaerages are what would happen if you tookt he kills from about 50+ games and avaeraged the numbers. butthen, its not like your goignt o end up with JUST 15 kroot and 7 marines. if blow the kroot sway in about 2 seconds falt with some heavy bolters, some scouts and a tac squad.
Lynx
ps. get your bum into a school and teach maths if you can workt that shiz out.
A wise man once said: Blow me @$$wipe :lol:
Point in case, just like DE, if Kroot were decent more would play them. Im not sure what this proves, or why you would spend the time to calculate kroot vs marines?
Sure if kroot stay in the woods 100% of the time and the entire board is nothing but forests then yes im sure they'd do rather well. Unfotunately that's unrealistic and the kroot die by the dozens, flamer vs toughness 3 is fun
Im still curious what this is supposed to prove? wow 2 equal points units. That shows virtually nothing. Again, kroot get mowed down by the dozens and are a pretty pathetic army that will most likely be put on the same shelf as harlequins and DE
If you post something like this, post what each figure means - not just a jumble of numbers with no references.
Also, even though the points of the units wouldn't be 100% correct, it would be a lot easier if you had units made up of mulitples of 6.
For example. If I have 36 orks firing at marines. 36 shots - 12 hit, 6 wound, 4 save 2 dead. It makes the mumbers so much easier to understand (and a reason why people don't go for shooty ork armies).
If I have 18 marines shooting at orks. 12 hit, 6 wound, no saves 6 dead.
Try it with 18 Marines versus 36 Kroot.
First of all, to moody:
I appologize for the lack of formatting, it doesn't transfer well from excell to php. Basically, first set of numbers are the number of space marines, their ballistics skill, weapon strength, toughness and armour save--those features which factor into shooting--followed by the average number of hits, wounds, and kills inflicted against the kroot, as well as the kills per marine.
The same information is given about the kroot.
The last two sets of numbers are the remaining number of models in each squad after a given number of shooting rounds (two shooting rounds, one per side, per game round)
Basically, while this format doesn't result in whole numbers, whole numbers aren't strictly necessary to compare the effectiveness of the two units. I don't want to use 18 marines to 36 kroot, because I want to compare equal point values of each type of model. 7 marines and 15 kroot cost the same amount of points.
To Kirasu:
I was not very clear. I am a Tau player, and I am discussing the value of Kroot as part of the Tau army, not as a faction unto themselves. I wouldn't play an all kroot army either, even though they are clearly good infantry. Many Tau players think very poorly of the kroot, and I am attempting to show that they can actually hold their own quite well against equal points worth of space marines (who are generally considered to be very good troops). They can even hold their own in the shooting phase, which is definitely the part of combat which the Kroot are the worst at, and that says something about their overall effectiveness. I was posting this here, because I thougt you Sm players might like to see how marines stacked up against some xenos savages.
Furthermore, I would point out that these numbers were composed as if the kroot were in the open. If they were in woods, they would completely annihilate the space marines--it wouldn't even be close. Also, flamers really should not be considered. If the space marines are closing to the point where they can use flamers, they've lost the fight already. Run the numbers yourself, but for the space marines to spend time closing with an equal point value of Kroot would be a death sentence--for the Marines.
The point was to show that an equal point value of kroot--a unit generally thought to be not very good--was actually very close to equally effective in shooting as space marines--a unit thought generally to be quite good. Given that the Kroot will utterly dominate space marines in melee, I think this says a lot about them as a unit.
To Lynx:
First off, to Lynx: Yes, these are just statistics, and die rolls will be random enough to not always follow them very precisely. However, to deny statistics as a good method through which to make such a comparison is little more than stupidity.
It is true that heavy bolters are very hard on the kroot, and in this situation would allow the space marines to easily win the firing combat, however the rapid fire range doesn't matter. If they are exchanging rapid fire shots, the kroot will still win. If the marines advance to rapid fire range, the kroot will get to rapid fire first (think about it and you will see that this is true) and the kroot will be able to win in melee--even when assaulted and not in cover. Run the numbers if you don't believe me--I have, and I can tell you that closing with the Kroot will only turn a close firefight into a feast for the Kroot.
Furthermore, while it is true that there will never be only 15 kroot and 7 space marines in a battle, that is an equal-point-value comparison of very similar troops. The only situation in which the space marines have any good chance of winning--short of bringing heavy bolters--is standing still and trading shots at 24 inches on open ground, and in this situation the Kroot and the Space Marines are basically even. I feel that this is pretty remarkable, personally, even if it is not an indication that a space marine army will alwasy lose to a Kroot army (which it was never supposed to be).
7 marines - 15 crootOriginally posted by Bean@Dec 11 2004, 16:14
Basically, while this format doesn't result in whole numbers, whole numbers aren't strictly necessary to compare the effectiveness of the two units. I don't want to use 18 marines to 36 kroot, because I want to compare equal point values of each type of model. 7 marines and 15 kroot cost the same amount of points.[snapback]272045[/snapback]
Double
14 marines - 30 croot
Add half as much again:
17.5 marines - 37.5 croot.
I think you'll find that 18 marines versus 36 croot will be pretty close to equal values, maybe not quite (2 figures out) but enough to get a general idea.
The thing about using whole numbers is that you can calculate it all in your head, and apply it on the battle field. I know if I have a squad of 18 orks firing at marines that I wil on average kill marine. A number like 5.5555r% doesn't really tell me much.
You're right, it's pretty close. I don't know; I guess I find percentages to be just about as useful as whole numbers. I mean, an assessment for an actual game situation will depend on how many of each are actually there, and the odds of the point values being even are low.
Anyway, if you work out the numbers using 36 and 18, not only will you still have to get into fractions if you carry it over multiple rounds, but the results are very similar.