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  1. #1
    Senior Member Bigshindig's Avatar
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    [B]SORRY ABOUT THIS POSTED IN THE WRONG FORUM


    I am either gonna use this guard list or my freeks i posted on the ork forum. Anyways this is a list i wrote back in the good ol' days of 3rd edition, I had to change it a bit to make it fit the new codex.

    Ere We go:

    Doctrines:
    # Close Order(a must)
    # Iron discipline(best deal in the codex)
    # Sharp Shooters (makes guard better at what it does best)
    # Independant Commissars (I love commissars)

    Command Platoon

    Junior officer w/ c. armor + power weapon, honorifica, iron discipline
    Command squad w/ veteran with standard, heavy bolter, master vox,
    sharp shooters
    all that can have cc weapons have em'

    Anti Tank squad 1
    Missle launchers X3
    sharpshooters

    Anti Tank squad 2
    Missle launchers X3
    sharpshooters

    Command total: 346

    Commissars (the friendly reminders) X3
    c armor, power weapons
    180

    Troops:

    Platoon A

    Command squad
    Junior officer w/ power weapon, c armor
    squad w/ heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    lasguns

    Squad 1 w/ autocannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Squad 2 w/ autocannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Squad 3 w/ Heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Squad 4 w/ Heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Platoon A total: 425

    Platoon B

    Command squad
    Junior officer w/ power weapon, c armor
    squad w/ heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    lasguns

    Squad 1 w/ lascannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Squad 2 w/ lascannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Squad 3 w/ lascannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Squad 4 w/ lascannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ cc weapon + laspistol

    Platoon B total: 475

    Leman Russ w/ heavy bolter
    extra armor
    150

    Leman Russ w/ heavy bolter
    extra armor
    150

    Basalisk
    indirect fire
    125

    Grand total: 1850

    comments?

    "That is the sound of inevitability"

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  3. #2
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    To be brutally blunt, this is a shockingly bad list, IMO. Here’s why:

    Unless you have a doctrine slot free and nothing better to spend it on, then drop Close Order Drill. It’s just not worth it. Your chances of playing against someone who doesn’t have AEW are slim-to-none, the Ld bonus is rarely applied, and the improved Initiative, while useful, doesn’t help as much as some people like to think.

    Iron Discipline is fine. Personally, my preference is for Chem-Inhalers. It’s more expensive, sure, but it covers the entire army, not just troops, and can never be switched off. It’s a bitch to model, however. Mind you, now GW has dropped the WYSIWYG rule you might be allowed to gloss over the modeling issue. A word of caution, however, Iron Discipline does make your Officers even more of a priority target. You might want to look into getting some Veteran Sergeants as a back-up.

    Sharpshooters is okay, a little on the expensive side for what it does but okay. It’s a matter of taste. I wouldn’t take it as I prefer more shots than very, very, very slightly better ones. But you’ve spent over 100 points on it, which is crazy. That’s a huge waste of points.

    Why are you taking the Independent Commissars doctrine? Is there some reason? Who are you putting these Commissars with (assuming you’re not dumb enough to let them wander around on their own)? Drop this doctrine, buy the Commissars the regular way, stick ‘em with your Officers, and save yourself 45 points and a doctrine slot.

    No fifth doctrine? Not even Drop Troops? It’s free, after all.

    The Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperalis is a little cheesy and some players will dock you for it. Come up with some really good and believable fluff as to who this guy is and you might do okay.

    A Heavy Bolter in your Command Platoon Command Squad? Why? Short on range, needs line-of-sight, adds to the expense of one of your enemy’s primary target. Not a good idea. Go for a Mortar if you want a Heavy Weapon or better yet, nothing. And why on earth do you give the Guardsmen here CCWs? This is not an assault unit. It’s got a Heavy Weapon and the Master-Vox. It’s a Leadership unit, obviously. Decide what you want to do with this squad and rearrange it accordingly.

    Heavy Weapon Squads are very, very easy to kill. Against a good opponent with a reasonable force and these guys won’t even get to fire. Drop ‘em and put the Heavy Weapons into regular squads.

    You don’t give the Commissars any ranged weapon other than a Laspistol? Why on earth not? And your points total is off here; the combined cost of the three Commissars should be 195, not 180. And you’ve tooled the Commissars up for CC but there’s no CC units for them to join! Please don’t tell me you’ll be sending these guys into combat alone? (The same can be said for your Sergeants – give them Lasguns&#33

    You get the Iron Discipline doctrine but don’t give it to any Officers save the one in your Command Platoon? What gives?

    Why give the Platoon A & B Command Squads Heavy Bolters? (See above for increased target priority.) Also, if they’re behind your troops (which they should be), the limited range of a HB will be even more of a detriment (when behind the longer ranged Autocannon).

    Your final points total is wrong; I think you’re at least 16 points over.

    Good points. Well, there aren’t many. But you have 110+ infantry, which isn’t bad for 1850. It’s not good, either, but it’s not bad. You do have plenty of firepower, a good mix of both anti-tank and anti-infantry. Some of the anti-tank won’t last long, of course, but at least that will buy you time for your Lascannons.
    _________
    Don't blame me; I'm just telling it like it is. Blame GW if you really want to blame somebody.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Bigshindig's Avatar
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    Hey commissar, sorry about the mix up points and the wacked out commands, and as for the doctrines i will use your drop troops. But the flavor i was trying to create was one of our old 3rd edition guard lists, back when commissars where independent and heavy weapons were in all of the squads. Iron discipline can be used over a vox, thats why i gave it to only my command officer w/ a master vox in his group. Anyways heres my revised list.

    Doctrines:
    # Close Order
    # Iron discipline
    # Sharp Shooters
    # Drop troops
    # any ideas on another?

    Command Platoon

    Heroic senior officer w/ c. armor + power weapon + bolt pistol, iron discipline
    Command squad w/ veteran with standard, master vox
    commissar w/ power weapon + bolt pistol, carapace armor
    lasguns.

    Anti Tank squad 1
    Missle launchers X3
    sharpshooters

    Anti Tank squad 2
    Missle launchers X3
    sharpshooters

    Command total: 377

    Troops

    Platoon A

    Command squad
    Junior officer w/ power weapon + bolt pistol , c armor
    squad w/ 4 flamers (drop troops)

    Squad 1 w/ autocannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 2 w/ autocannon, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 3 w/ Heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 4 w/ Heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 5 w/ Heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Platoon A total: 515

    Platoon B

    Command squad
    Junior officer w/ power weapon + bolt pistol, c armor
    squad w/ 4 flamers (drop troops)

    Squad 1 w/ lascannon, vox
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 2 w/ lascannon, vox
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 3 w/ lascannon, vox
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 4 w/ lascannon, vox
    sergeant w/ lasgun

    Squad 5 w/ Heavy bolter, vox, sharp shooters
    sregeant w/ lasgun

    Platoon B total:525

    Leman Russ w/ heavy bolter
    extra armor
    150

    Leman Russ w/ heavy bolter
    extra armor
    150

    Basalisk
    indirect fire
    125

    Grand total: 1842
    "That is the sound of inevitability"

  5. #4
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    Okay, let’s take another look.

    As far as doctrines go, I don’t particularly like Drop Troops. I only recommended it because it is one of few (non-restricted) doctrines that costs nothing. You’ll often see IG lists with three or four ‘important’ doctrines and then Drop Troops or Close Order Drill tacked on, shoved in there with no forethought to whether or not they fit the fluff. Sigh… Anyway, Drop Troops is not without its disadvantages but it can be useful, especially to throw into the mix of a regular stand-and-shoot army.

    Like I said, Close Order Drill is a waste of time. It’s one of the worst doctrines available, in fact. It has this reputation as being great for two reasons: one, as mentioned above it fills up a blank doctrine slot and is free, so many, many IG players take it (and if so many take it, it must be good, right?); and two, it adds bonuses to your IG’s average statline for free! Wow! Gosh! Golly! ...that’s sarcasm, by the way... It may be free, free, free, but it isn’t any good. Let’s look at the pros and cons.

    The Pros
    It’s free. Well, whoop-de-do. If this cost 5 points per unit, no one would touch it. (Well, some would for fluff reasons...)

    It adds +1 to your Initiative. This is the only useful thing about it. It gives your IG squad a chance to strike at the same time as many superior enemies (i.e. Marines) and before others (i.e. Orks or Necrons), which can be helpful (although you’re still stuck with a WS of 3 and a ST of 3).

    It adds +1 to your Leadership. (Except that more often than not it doesn’t, see below).

    The Cons
    It encourages you to resist an assault, which you still have no better chance of surviving.

    It doesn’t really add +1 to your Ld. If you have a regular squad (Ld of 7) then when in COD they have a Ld of 8. However, with a JO/SO nearby, they have a Ld of 8 anyway. With an HSO nearby, they have a Ld of 9. Higher yet with a Commissar. So where’s the benefit? Now, if they’re out-of-range of an officer, it does help, I’ll grant you, especially if you give the squad a Veteran Sergeant (final Ld of 9), but again this is nothing a Vox can’t do.

    If you take Heavy Weapons in a squad, you either have to start the game in COD formation and never move, or lose at least one turn of shooting to get into COD. And if you don’t start in COD, and your opponent gets an assault squad near your lines, would you rather fire your Heavy Weapons (and rapid-fire everything else) or waste time getting into COD (and still rapid-fire)?

    Your squads are all bunched up. That makes them extremely easy to kill. Flamers will wipe out a whole squad. Frag grenades and missiles, which are now practically useless in 4e against any foe, will be superb against COD IG and will hit four or five Guardsmen at least instead of just one. Ordnance will wipe out one squad if you’re lucky, two if you’re not. And so on…

    Well, I guess I’ve rambled on about COD enough. Suffice it to say that combined with lots of other doctrines (i.e. Xeno-Fighters, Hardened Fighters, Close Combat Weapons), Close Order Drill could be useful. But not many IG players will want to do that. Take it to fill out your five doctrine slots if need be.

    Consider Light Infantry as a doctrine. It enables you to Infiltrate, which would be a huge boon to your ML Anti-Tank squads. Stick them in cover where they can snipe at enemy vehicles.

    I could be mistaken but I believe Iron Discipline cannot be used over a Vox. I thought that was cleared up in the IG FAQ but I couldn’t see it anywhere. Maybe I’m wrong. Either way, while Iron Discipline is great, expect to lose your officers. That makes Voxes redundant. Go for Veteran Sergeants instead.

    I like that you’ve dropped the Sharpshooters doctrine on the LC squads but you have kept it on practically everything else, so you really need to think about what you want from this doctrine. Single-shot weapons, like the ML or LC, are less likely to roll a 1 (obviously) so the doctrine might be wasted. However, their targets might be of vital importance, so that safety net might be needed. The reverse is obviously true of multi-shot weapons (HB and AC), which are more likely to roll 1s but their targets are less important. This is why you need to consider which squads need the Sharpshooters doctrine. Personally, what I would do is to drop it off all squads save the two ML Anti-Tank squads (who need to hit their target every time if possible) and the two AC squads in Platoon A (who will be taking down light vehicles). The LC squads could also benefit from the doctrine, but I would save the points and use the LCs as a back-up for the ML Anti-Tank squads. The HBs don’t need it.

    Of course, some IG players love the Sharpshooters doctrine for their regular grunts. Masses of Lasgun fire means you’re much more likely to roll 1s. For example, in two squads (without Heavy or Special Weapons, of course) you’re likely to roll three 1s (or six if rapid-firing) on average, and thus you have a chance of getting a further 1.5 hits. This is another thing you should consider.

    Onto your Troops. You’ve made a weird decision of using both the Command Squads of Platoons A and B as drop troops, which would be fine if the rest of their platoon was dropping with them. But they’re not, so we have the problem of dropping Command Squads (no matter how effective they might be) and leaving the Platoon leaderless. I assume you’re relying on voxes to help out – bad idea. You’ll lose the HSO pretty quickly, so who will lead them?

    The Command Squads are kitted out well for the drop troops role – four Flamers and a geared-up assaulting JO is a good throwaway assault unit – but unless you’re going to drop a whole platoon, you need to rethink this.

    Excellent choice in giving your Sergeants Lasguns rather than the Laspistol/CCW combo. Unless the unit is a dedicated assault unit there’s no point in losing one Lasgun. Every little helps.

    I like the two Platoons much better now. Platoon A is anti-infantry, with the added bonus of being able to take out light vehicles. Platoon B

    Don’t be afraid to mix-and-match, if that feels better to you, but remember when you deploy what weapons should go where. If you’re facing a horde (Orks, IG, Tryanids, etc.) stick the HBs at the front and everything else behind. If you’re facing vehicles or MEQs, place the LC at the front and the ML near the rear.

    I prefer to outfit my Leman Russes (not Demolishers) with the LC. No sponsons of any description. Most of the time you’ll be firing ordanance, so it won’t matter what other weapons you have (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen LRBT with sponsons and pintle-mounts – what a waste of points&#33. However, I like the LC as a back-up, just in case I need to move (in which case the LC is still a tank-killer but is more accurate). Extra Armour is always good but some people may insist on WYSIWYG, so be warned.

    As far as points totals go, I make your HQ 383 points, not 377, but maybe my math is off. I also make Platoon B only 520 points. But I make your total points cost 1843. If you need to spend those few extra points, then think about a few minor upgrades for your vehicles. Searchlights are usually pointless, but worth their weight in night-fights. Camo Netting should also be considered.
    _________
    Don't blame me; I'm just telling it like it is. Blame GW if you really want to blame somebody.

  6. #5
    LO Zealot MobiusPrime's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The Commissar+Feb 23 2005, 141--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(The Commissar &#064; Feb 23 2005, 141)</div><div class='quotemain'>Like I said, Close Order Drill is a waste of time. It’s one of the worst doctrines available, in fact. It has this reputation as being great for two reasons: one, as mentioned above it fills up a blank doctrine slot and is free, so many, many IG players take it (and if so many take it, it must be good, right?); and two, it adds bonuses to your IG’s average statline for free&#33; Wow&#33; Gosh&#33; Golly&#33; ...that’s sarcasm, by the way... It may be free, free, free, but it isn’t any good. Let’s look at the pros and cons.
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
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    Uh...onto the counter rant.


    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    The Pros
    It’s free. Well, whoop-de-do. If this cost 5 points per unit, no one would touch it. (Well, some would for fluff reasons...)
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
    You&#39;re probably right. Fewer players would touch it if it costs points to use. Fortunately, it doesn&#39;t cost any points, so your Whoop-de-do is unfounded. If heavy bolters in squads were free, I bet you&#39;d see more heavy bolters in squads than you&#39;d see -insert comical analogy here-

    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    It adds +1 to your Initiative. This is the only useful thing about it. It gives your IG squad a chance to strike at the same time as many superior enemies (i.e. Marines) and before others (i.e. Orks or Necrons), which can be helpful (although you’re still stuck with a WS of 3 and a ST of 3).
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
    It also puts a lot more models within striking range at Initiative 4. I got charged by a desparate Necron Destroyer squad that faced all eleven of my attacks at initiative 4 because of my tight formation. Despite needing 4s to hit and 6s to wound and a 3+ save, I caused two casualties. When he failed to kill anyone, I ran him down easy because I&#39;ve a two point advantage on his initiative.


    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    The Cons
    It encourages you to resist an assault, which you still have no better chance of surviving.
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
    Uhh, did you mean to say that it encourages you to launch assault? Any guard player worth his or her salt should be resisting hand to hand anyway. And contrary to what you say, you do have a better chance of surviving, should you be assaulted.


    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    It doesn’t really add +1 to your Ld. If you have a regular squad (Ld of 7) then when in COD they have a Ld of 8. However, with a JO/SO nearby, they have a Ld of 8 anyway. With an HSO nearby, they have a Ld of 9. Higher yet with a Commissar. So where’s the benefit? Now, if they’re out-of-range of an officer, it does help, I’ll grant you, especially if you give the squad a Veteran Sergeant (final Ld of 9), but again this is nothing a Vox can’t do.
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
    It doesn&#39;t add +1 to Ld? Then what am I paying points for (oh yeah, I&#39;m not paying any points) I&#39;m sure that it does add to Ld. Whether you use it or not, your leadership is affected (mindwar). If the +1 Ld argument is to come into play, I&#39;d state that Voxes and Vet Sgts aren&#39;t worth it either, as there should always be at least a JO close by that grants their Ld value to the squad.

    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    If you take Heavy Weapons in a squad, you either have to start the game in COD formation and never move, or lose at least one turn of shooting to get into COD. And if you don’t start in COD, and your opponent gets an assault squad near your lines, would you rather fire your Heavy Weapons (and rapid-fire everything else) or waste time getting into COD (and still rapid-fire)?
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
    What are you talking about? Since most games involve moving around anyway, you should expect to have to move at least once during a game. And when you deploy, you should set your squads up in a way where you can shoot the enemy for a few turns with things like Heavy Bolters, Auto Cannons or Missile Launchers without fear of return fire due to your superior range, so you won&#39;t have to worry if you&#39;re all bunched together.

    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    Your squads are all bunched up. That makes them extremely easy to kill. Flamers will wipe out a whole squad. Frag grenades and missiles, which are now practically useless in 4e against any foe, will be superb against COD IG and will hit four or five Guardsmen at least instead of just one. Ordnance will wipe out one squad if you’re lucky, two if you’re not. And so on…
    [snapback]336965[/snapback]
    Flamers are a big threat (they always have been), but missiles and other template weapons still aren&#39;t too much of a worry. You get an armor save against most of these weapons, and you can arrange your formation so a missile would only catch two or three, the same amount of damage you would expect from a heavy bolter (which you don&#39;t get an armor save from).
    Look:
    Let&#39;s say Space Marines are shooting at your COD Guard.
    In the first case, we&#39;ll say they are shooting frag missiles at us. Let us give that everytime, the marine catches three guardsmen in the blast.
    In a six turn game, statistically, he&#39;ll hit four times, so he&#39;ll hit 12 guardsmen.
    He needs threes to wound, so he&#39;ll cause eight wounds.
    We get our flak armor save, so we&#39;ll save one or two.
    We&#39;ve taken six or seven wounds, ouch&#33;

    Now let&#39;s say the Marine is toting a Heavy Bolter and shooting at our COD Guard. (COD not making a difference here.)
    In a six turn game, the marine will shoot 18 times, of which (statistically) 12 should hit.
    Needing 2s to would, he&#39;ll get 10 wounds, and we don&#39;t get an armor save. OUCH&#33;

    So we take less casualties from the missile launcher all game, plus, he&#39;s diverting a tank killing weapon away from our Chimera&#39;s, Hellhounds, and Sentinels to kill seven or eight guardsmen in six turns? Heck, sign me up&#33;

    Even better, if you&#39;ve alligned in a COD formation and you get shot at by an ordnance weapon, if the ordnance scatters, there&#39;s less of a chance you&#39;ll get hit at all than with a spread formation.

    In fact, you can use COD to temp an enemy into blasting a squad using COD (juicy target) with their big ordnance gun in lieu of shooting the real threat.

    Anyway. End Pro COD rant.

    Originally posted by The Commissar@Feb 23 2005, 141
    I could be mistaken but I believe Iron Discipline cannot be used over a Vox. I thought that was cleared up in the IG FAQ but I couldn’t see it anywhere. Maybe I’m wrong. Either way, while Iron Discipline is great, expect to lose your officers. That makes Voxes redundant. Go for Veteran Sergeants instead.
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    I think you&#39;re right. Iron Discipline can&#39;t be used over voxes, but I&#39;m not sure. Iron Discipline is still a steal for its benefits/points. But you shouldn&#39;t &#39;expect&#39; to lose your officers unless you deepstrike (in which case, just don&#39;t buy Iron Discipline for this guy) or are facing indirect fire. Put a mortar in the officer&#39;s staff and hide behind a rock or tank out of LOS to the enemy.



    <!--QuoteBegin-The Commissar
    @Feb 23 2005, 141
    I prefer to outfit my Leman Russes (not Demolishers) with the LC. No sponsons of any description. Most of the time you’ll be firing ordanance, so it won’t matter what other weapons you have (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen LRBT with sponsons and pintle-mounts – what a waste of points&#33. However, I like the LC as a back-up, just in case I need to move (in which case the LC is still a tank-killer but is more accurate). Extra Armour is always good but some people may insist on WYSIWYG, so be warned.
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    What&#39;re you talking about? Due to the new rules of where you have to place your ordnance marker, a skilled opponent will make you only able to get one hit with two partials if you roll a Hit on your scatter die. This&#39;ll average you about 2 kills a turn. Whoo....hooo, psh. And you might not get any if you scatter. Three heavy bolters will statistically get more hits, and kill more enemies too.
    And for cripes sake, it&#39;s only 10 friggin points for a set&#33;
    I tend to only fire the battle cannon on enemies who deepstrike or jump out of tanks in a tight formation where the chances of me covering four or five models with a hit are good.

  7. #6
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    Wow, quite a counter-rant, MobiusPrime. One quick question, however… have you ever actually played a game of 40k? Let alone played with an IG force&#33; Holy krap, I couldn’t believe the absolute drivel you just spouted&#33; I really don’t mean to be insulting, honestly, so I’ll rein myself in and calm down but in all truthfulness I have never heard such nonsense.

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime+Feb 24 2005, 125--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MobiusPrime &#064; Feb 24 2005, 125)</div><div class='quotemain'>You&#39;re probably right. Fewer players would touch it if it costs points to use. Fortunately, it doesn&#39;t cost any points, so your Whoop-de-do is unfounded. If heavy bolters in squads were free, I bet you&#39;d see more heavy bolters in squads than you&#39;d see -insert comical analogy here-[/b]


    My comment is not unfounded. As I pointed out in my previous post, the fact that the COD doctrine is free is outweighed by it’s many drawbacks. The Droptroops doctrine, by comparison, has less drawbacks. And to say that if something else was free you’d see a lot more of it is a ridiculously naïve statement. If this was true, then everyone (or almost everyone) would take the free doctrines first, then order up the rest in order of cheapness. Which, as I hope you are aware, is simply not the case. Light Infantry (10+ points per squad) and Carapace Armour (20 points per squad) (and lots of other doctrines, those are just two examples) are expensive but are still incredibly popular doctrines. But they’re not free, are they? So why do people take them? Because they’re effective, that’s why. Close Order Drill is never (well, almost never, I don’t wish to generalise) taken because it is effective. It’s taken because it’s free, it fills up an empty doctrine slot, and/or it’s fluffy.

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    It also puts a lot more models within striking range at Initiative 4. I got charged by a desparate Necron Destroyer squad that faced all eleven of my attacks at initiative 4 because of my tight formation. Despite needing 4s to hit and 6s to wound and a 3+ save, I caused two casualties. When he failed to kill anyone, I ran him down easy because I&#39;ve a two point advantage on his initiative.
    Yes, it does. That’s why I said the improved Initiative was the only good thing about the COD doctrine. You even quote me saying it&#33; Are you arguing or agreeing with me? You seem uncertain. But the improved Initiative won’t do you any good if you’re fired at by assault weapons before a charge, say like a Flamer&#33;

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    Uhh, did you mean to say that it encourages you to launch assault? Any guard player worth his or her salt should be resisting hand to hand anyway. And contrary to what you say, you do have a better chance of surviving, should you be assaulted.
    No, I didn’t mean to say that it encourages you to launch an assault. I meant to say that it encourages you to resist an assault, which is why I said that it encourages you to resist an assault. I can see why you’d be confused.

    I have seen, many, many times, IG players leaving their COD squads in charge range of the enemy instead of moving them away, falsely assuming that the improved Initiative gives them a better chance of surviving (or even winning) the combat. 9 times out of 10 their squads get slaughtered. COD adds +1 to your Initiative so you get to strike at the same time as most other armies. It doesn’t not improve your WS, your S, your T, your W, nor you save. You may do a fraction more damage but your squad will still be killed (almost all the time).

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    It doesn&#39;t add +1 to Ld? Then what am I paying points for (oh yeah, I&#39;m not paying any points) I&#39;m sure that it does add to Ld. Whether you use it or not, your leadership is affected (mindwar). If the +1 Ld argument is to come into play, I&#39;d state that Voxes and Vet Sgts aren&#39;t worth it either, as there should always be at least a JO close by that grants their Ld value to the squad.
    You’re buying the doctrine because it’s free&#33; Don’t you understand that yet? You’re not buying it because it offers +1 Ld on rare occasions when the squad is in COD formation and has no other Ld bonuses, which is what the text really infers. You’re buying it because all you read is +1 Ld, +1 I, and FREE&#33;

    You can be sure it adds to Ld if you like but I’ve told you in plain and simple terms that it does not. The Ld of squads is not affected&#33; The JO over-rules it. Unless of course you don’t put an officer nearby or move the squad away from said officer (which is a potential use of COD squads) but you agree with me that you should never do that&#33; (And this is me repeating myself, because I’ve already said this, you’ve quoted me, etc. etc.).

    I’d agree that Voxes aren’t worth it, because they’re more expensive (than Veteran Sergeants) and vulnerable. Veteran Sergeants are worth their weight in gold. A permanent (almost, generalising again, sorry) Ld of 8 with possible higher Ld, while in any formation? I’ll take it.

    Now, Veteran Sergeants with COD, then you’re in business. Ld of 9 without an officer. Of course, that still doesn’t combat all the other disadvantages…

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    What are you talking about? Since most games involve moving around anyway, you should expect to have to move at least once during a game. And when you deploy, you should set your squads up in a way where you can shoot the enemy for a few turns with things like Heavy Bolters, Auto Cannons or Missile Launchers without fear of return fire due to your superior range, so you won&#39;t have to worry if you&#39;re all bunched together.
    Yes, most games involve moving around but this is something Heavy Weapon squads or infantry squads with Heavy Weapons should avoid doing if at all possible. That’s why I said “If you take Heavy Weapons in a squad?&#33; That’s also why experienced IG players have dedicated movement squads (AFs, RRs, infantry with no Heavy Weapons, etc.). Why are you arguing with me when all you’re doing is agreeing with me? I don’t understand what you’re driving at. I say that you have to start the game in COD (or move into it) and you say I’m wrong, you have to start the game in COD. What nonsense is this?

    Read my post again, please, more carefully this time. Better yet, I’ll risk repeating myself. Heavy Weapon squads (or infantry with Heavy Weapons) either have to start the game in COD and never (generalizing&#33 move (if you do, you’ll lose at least a turn of Heavy Weapon fire, which is not good for IG) or move later into COD, which is tricky, foolhardy, and makes you lose those Heavy Weapons shots again (and even more firepower on occasion – see the example I already gave).

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    Flamers are a big threat (they always have been), but missiles and other template weapons still aren&#39;t too much of a worry.
    Are you serious? Really? Look, a frag missile hitting a spread out squad in 40k3e could hit two (or maybe three) Guardsmen. In 40k4e you have to place the centre of the template over a single model. Therefore, a spread out unit (i.e. usual 2? coherency) will only lose one Guardsman. That’s why no one fires frag anymore, it’s always krak. Against COD it’s different. With a frag missile (or grenade) you can hit potentially six Guardsmen&#33; Six&#33; And that’s not a worry? Then I don’t know what is&#33;

    Yes, you get a save against frags, I will admit. But, as an IG opponent will tell you, it’s better to take a (good) chance on killing half-a-dozen Guardsmen than a surety of killing only one.

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    and you can arrange your formation so a missile would only catch two or three,
    No, you can’t. That’s the point of COD, after all. You have to be in COD&#33;

    Your example of Smurfs firing at COD Guard is misguided because you are assuming there are only missiles to worry about. A Smurf squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Grenade Launcher would make mincemeat of a COD squad. But lets use your example. Each turn, the Smurf with the ML will hit six Guardsmen (possibly less depending on the angle and range, but let’s assume all things are equal) if, of course he hits. Not three. The template will cover six Guardsmen in COD. One in a regularly positioned squad, but six in a COD squad. So in a six-turn game, he’ll hit four times, as you say, which works out at 24 Guardsmen. That’s 16 Guardsmen wounded. Between 4 and 5 saves are made, so that’s between 11 and 12 casualties. Not six or seven, as you claim. Compare that to the 10 you claim (correctly) a HB will cause over the same time period (which is unlikely, due to the shorter range). You take more casualties, not less.

    I will admit that this use of the ML will save some of your vehicles. However, Sentinels, Chimeras and even Hellhounds (if you’re really lucky) can be taken out with a Heavy Bolter too (even with a Bolter&#33, so that negates your argument somewhat.

    Now let’s combine that GL and HB. To save you the breakdown of maths, let me tell you that over a six-turn game, this combo Smurf squad (assuming they’re always in range, which is unfair, of course) will kill 24 COD Guardsmen – but they would only get 13 or so regularly positioned Guardsmen.

    Still thinking COD is a good idea? (Naturally, we’re both ignoring ranges here. A ML has that advantage over a HB, remember?)

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    Even better, if you&#39;ve alligned in a COD formation and you get shot at by an ordnance weapon, if the ordnance scatters, there&#39;s less of a chance you&#39;ll get hit at all than with a spread formation.

    This is true and is does bear thinking about. However, the corresponding argument is that if the Ordnance does indeed hit, you’ll lose a lot more Guardsman in COD than you would otherwise.

    Ask yourself this? Why is COD free? It gives you to bonuses useful in CC, yet doctrines that only give you one bonus cost points (and usually a lot). So why is it free? Why do you think?

    At the end of the day, COD makes killing IG even easier than it is, and should be avoided. Use it to fill an empty slot if you wish (heaven knows, I do) but don’t claim any other reasoning, please.

    Originally posted by MobiusPrime@Feb 24 2005, 125
    But you shouldn&#39;t &#39;expect&#39; to lose your officers unless you deepstrike (in which case, just don&#39;t buy Iron Discipline for this guy) or are facing indirect fire. Put a mortar in the officer&#39;s staff and hide behind a rock or tank out of LOS to the enemy.

    Yeah… right… Even if you hide every Command Squad out of LOS (which in itself is a difficult enough task – and that means most likely you’ll be relying on voxes) then it is remarkably easy for (almost) any opponent to hit them. Deepstriking units, indirect fire, infiltrating units, fast attack units, scouts, etc. etc. Officers are always the primary target when I play against IG and I have always found when field my various IG armies that my officers get torn to shreds quickly. But you can get lucky.

    <!--QuoteBegin-MobiusPrime
    @Feb 24 2005, 125
    What&#39;re you talking about? Due to the new rules of where you have to place your ordnance marker, a skilled opponent will make you only able to get one hit with two partials if you roll a Hit on your scatter die. This&#39;ll average you about 2 kills a turn. Whoo....hooo, psh. And you might not get any if you scatter. Three heavy bolters will statistically get more hits, and kill more enemies too. [/quote]


    Granted, you might not get any hits if you scatter. But if you don’t the number of hits you’ll get is far more than one or three. Are you sure you’re using the right template? The large one is ordnance, not the small. You’ll hit at least five targets (one and four partials) even if the unit is at the maximum coherency. At less (say, an IG squad using COD), you can hit upwards of eight (without partials).

    And, once again, you’re forgetting range. The BC has a 72? range, the HB half that. You’ll be putting one of your most expensive targets in range of your enemy’s most powerful guns. Is that wise? In a related argument, if you’re firing ordnance at deepstrikers and assaulting units as you claim, you must be foolhardy (at best). The chances of the shot scattering back on to your own troops is frightening.

    I like to upgrade my Demolishers with the three HBs. You have little choice but to get in close with those tanks, so the HBs work well. But for LRBTs, leave ‘em at home. As for them only being ten points, well, that says a lot about both of us. I think every point is vital. You obviously think 10 points is nothing.
    _________
    Don&#39;t blame me; I&#39;m just telling it like it is. Blame GW if you really want to blame somebody.

  8. #7
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    wow kittens settle down.
    you are both making very valid points in your duiscussions
    but remember
    and this is a big one.
    play the guard you like to play
    if you like using CoD and can arrange your army to make use of it do it
    if you cant dont take it
    its a fun game and there are many many ways to play it
    each to there own use what you can make work
    adaptation on the battle field has won more wars than any other tactics
    the ability to respond to your opponants actions and make the best use of the army youve chosen is what it is all about
    if it works dont fix it
    nuff said
    btw i use CoD and trust me as a free doctrine it has saved my butt while letting me regroup to set up another firing line.
    I have also not taken it and been fine.
    games are won or lost by the general not the army.
    take 2 identical armies played by 2 seperate generals and see how differently they can be played
    ttfn

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    Okay, I can see now that this is going to be like a political debate: No matter how many good points one party makes, the other party always comes in and denies everything the first party said.

    So I&#39;m just gonna drop it, but not without clearing up a few points before I do.

    1. Close Order Drill is free because it has gameplay mechanics that are a drawback (standing in base to base formation). There are no gameplay mechanics that are negative about everyone having 4+ armor save, so a cost is incured as a drawback.

    2. If I line my infantry squad up like this:

    oooooooooo

    (Which would grant me a COD bonus)
    I want to see you hit six guardsmen with one frag missile, and I&#39;ll give you a dollar if you do it.

    3. Marines can&#39;t get grenade launchers. Only Guard and Chaos (I think) can.

    and finally

    4. If your Officers are getting pwn3d every game, you may want to rethink your strategy. My Capt and Lt nearly make it through every game unscathed, and only do ever get killed when everything else around them is either in a bloody pile, or a smoking heap.

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