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Recently a discussion came up weither rhinos are useful or not. I tend to believe they are even at an extra 15pts for OCE if you play BA (very dangerous ability). I can't stress enough how a rhino can extend the life span of a tac squad. Sure it could be blown up, but more then likely with a 12" move, you can move from cover to cover and pop smoke when needed (usually that first move). The meltagunner in my rhino squad has killed a couple preds, dreads, falcons and lema russes so far and is an invaluable member of my BA. Then theres a vet sgt with a pw (who I never take for DC) who gives the extra ld when they get shot at in return and if they get assaulted the pw can split some heads. Because of this I find a rhino to be a great option, especially for assault oriented armies.
Anyone have a different opinion?
High Elves (BloodBowl)
Warseer Blood Bowl League
I agree that they add to your squads life expectancy and with the new rapid fire rules using them a s assault transports is even better as you can rapid fire 2 shots which will usualy hit on a 3+ instead of a possible 4+ in combat and with ap.
I tend towards using transports as squad protectors, nasty squad of Guants coming?
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I think Rhinos are very useful as well still, even for my Ultramarines army I love using them, some games I would never go without them. Must haves for capturing objectives, getting fire support up to my assaulting units, moving assault units and many many more things, they are still very useful.
Copied from my post in the thread in question:
1) Overcharged engines are useless, especially since you can't disembark after making an OCE move (BA faq 4.1.1)
2) New entanglement rules mean if the transport is destroyed you cannot move or shoot, and if you moved and suffered a penetrating hit destroying the transport you could also be forced to roll a lot of saves (bgb p.68 emergency disembarkation table)
3) Rhinos are the second lightest armored vehicle in the SM armory, just behind speeders, and are vulnerable to small weapons fire, anything s5 or better can destroy a rhino.
4) BA rhinos with the mandatory OCE are worth the cost of 4 marines and a meltabomb on your IC's or vet sgt's.
5) They draw fire from just about everything on the table from an opponent who has half a brain, and with all that fire they are more unlikely to survive than a deep striking terminator squad vs the IG armored regiments.
6) You can not disembark and do anything but stand pat, rapid firing at something that's in assault range when you disembark is a good way to get assaulted yourself, since again no opponent with half a brain wants a blood angels player to get the assault if they can absolutely help it.
7) tac marines in rhinos are *not* providing cover fire for your assault elements, thus leaving your assault marines and death company to be outnumbered and overwhelmed once they *do* get into assault
8) A Whirlwind with vengeance missiles can wipe out an entire tac squad in a rhino, or any ordnance stronger than the whirlie. Mortar teams come to mind.
9) Deploying your tac squads behind a rhino blocks LOS, thus preventing them from shooting anyway, and it's an easy move for your opponent to get around the cover to fire on you, or move outside assault range so that next turn he can *still* get the assault on you.
10) Tac squads with meltaguns are all well and good, yes, but that dreadnought will destroy your rhino without even breaking stride.
Also, disembarking and double tapping someone with your bolters is a nice tactic, but it's also guaranteed to lose you the charge on your opponent's turn.
Forgive the rules summary, but:
If you take advantage of a transport's 12" move, you have a 75% chance to take a wound after disembarking on a penetrating hit, plus you're automatically entangled for the next turn (which means no shooty no choppy). If you get a penetrating hit from an ordnance weapon, the same applies except that you have a chance to completely lose the squad entire.
Is it worth the chance to not only take wounds on disembarking, but also lose an entire squad to buy a transport vehicle that would pay for another 3 marines and a meltabomb? (4 marines & a meltabomb in the case of Blood Angels with the mandatory OCE).
Phoenix makes some very good points. However, I still think the humble Rhino is a highly useful piece of kit. The obvious use is to deliver a Tactical squad into Bolter range and rip up some light infantry. However, another good use for it is to use it to block a unit's flanks from being assaulted or fired upon, forcing enemy troops to attack from the front: where all your army's weapons are pointing. It's cheap enough to be useful in this capacity.
However, its use as an assault unit has been decreased. For a Tactical squad it's useful though. Also good for shielding an expensive assault unit from enemy heavy weapons squads (buy it for a Tactical squad but use it to shield a nearby unit of Terminators, for example.)
Just some ideas on making use of them
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In my Sisters of Battle army I have never got a Rhino to do me any good. Usually, my Necron playing friend will blow them up on the first turn, leaving me with a whole bunch of useless points lieing on the battle field. I have recently decided that more than one (for LoS blocking) will be a waste in my army.
Phoenix makes quite a few great points. I never realized some of thsoe things. Before I read that, I thought Rhinos would actually be quite usefull in ferrying troops around. They still are useful to a degree, but they also become fire magnets unless you have something bigger (Land Raider, anyone?). I guess it's a gamble. You could get your troops into rapid fire range (It's only 12" after all) or you could get them blown up.
I usually take 2 rhinos and as much as 2 more razorbacks.
why? for rapid fire bolter death. I load up a rhino with a full squad with no upgrade save a single plasma gun, and stick a techmarine with harness with them. on the turn I unload that thing i get: A flamer, 1 MC plasma pisto, shot, 2 signum plasma gun shots, and 16 bolters. that is a withering amount of firepower.
and one thing I almost always use my rhinos for is...
mobile terrain for an assault squad! the squad moves just behind the rhino/razorback and once the squad inside gets assaulted, they hop over and join the fun. more on the mobile terrain aspect: using empty rhinos can be AWESOME to make your enemy choose a slower route to your firebase.
Haemonculus Coven Dark Eldar
The problem with the mobile terrain idea is it doesn't completely work for full sized squads unless you use a LR instead.Originally posted by Saethiel@Mar 19 2005, 15:43
and one thing I almost always use my rhinos for is...
mobile terrain for an assault squad! the squad moves just behind the rhino/razorback and once the squad inside gets assaulted, they hop over and join the fun. more on the mobile terrain aspect: using empty rhinos can be AWESOME to make your enemy choose a slower route to your firebase.[snapback]356279[/snapback]
IMHO rhinos are not worth it. Yes, they are good at blocking line of sight if you have multiple ones next to each other, but what kind of cover has an av of 10? Landspeeders also have av 10, but ravenwing ones have saves and most smart players will move it 6" causing only glancing hits.
Rhinos definately aren't that good at shooting either (oooooo my storm bolter is gonna take you down.....) so it's main purpose is as a transport. When people think of rhinos they think of quickly moving their units forward. This plan usually works, but what if your opponent is quick to act and blows up the rhino? Then you have a pinned squad standing to be shot at! Doesn't seem so fast now does it?
Think of it mathematicly. I normally have 4 tac squads of 8 marines in a 2000 point list. That means I'm paying 200 points for 4 rhinos without any goodies. 10% of your army is put into moving your guys around! That entire 10% can't actually kill anything except for maybe a few things with it's stormbolter. Not very cheap anymore eh?
In the end it's your choice, but unless I really need one I don't use it.
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PhoenixDreamer: Smoke Launchers. Points 2,3,5,8 pretty much negated... Check the vehicle rules regarding Entaglement again, and be very careful to understand the wording and how specific it is in regards to the effects to the vehicle (and the occupants).
They're not invincible, but when cannily used are not quite that vulnerable either. Especially if You play with enough terrain on the table instead of an ash desert/grassy plains/icefield/shooting gallery... (Y)
True, their usefulness to the bloodthirsty BA is considerably more limited so You probably are still better off with something else, but they're far from being totally useless.
Mortars for IG teams, BTW, are not Ordnance. Even if they were, I still fail to see how they could reliably affect a Rhino under any circumstances considering their rather low Str?
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