Welcome to Librarium Online!
If you were in charge of creating a new daemonhunter codex, what changes would you make to it.
I can think of five myself.
Make true grit apply to Grey knight terminator so players will stop arguing and Grey knights can have a little advantage over normal terminators for once.
Hammerfist is useless as is, so on top of doubling strength, give it the same vantage as a choppa (4+ armor save).
Purrigation squad can't kill tanks or heavy armor infantry. So give them bigger guns. STR 8 AP3 HEAVY 2 psi-autocannon and no Invulnerable save. A max of 2 per squad.
There needs to be a Radical hero created.
Finally, something needs to be done with the assassins. The callidus and eversor are ok, but the vindicare, culexus and death cult assassins can't make up their costs. I would love to hear any health suggestions.
I think if these changes were initiated it would give the grey knights a more balance army without tipping the scales in their favor.
Last edited by poeticwarrior; May 21st, 2005 at 11:03.
Reduce points cost of normal grey knights, theyre way too expensive. Id drop em to 18-20 pts and the justicar to 35 maybe.
We need an efficient anti-tank solution. Orbital is too unpredictable, melta squads have to have a tank to be able to do anything and not everyone likes inducting.
Grey knight squad 1
the grey knights should be able to have the vehicle upgrades in the space marine codex. Because it isn't really fair that marines have something like power of the machine spirit,a nd GK don't. It doesn't fit in with the fluff at all. And also VENERABLE dreadnoughts. Why should the marines be the only ones who get this upgrade? GK's are supposed to be superior, but i would prefer t field a marine dreadnought with venerable, than a GK one. How does that make sense. The knights are supposed to be better than the SM but because of the new codex they aren't. And why aren't our Assult cannons heavy 4 rending? And you can't say that it's because the codex was before 4th ed, because the plasmas have the gets hot rule.
Game workshop shouldhave released the DH codex AFTER the space marines, not before.
Grey Knight with jump packs
this would be pretty f'ing sweet
the inquisitors should be more powerful, because the only reason I can think of having one is for the benifits he gives (like assassins).
And what is he deal with bionics? They are so very confusing. They always give you 1 wound butdoes this mean they protect against instant kill, which it says the bionics don't work against them.
they really need to sort that codex out.
For the most part i'm pretty pleased with where we are. But if I had a wish list:
(1) A purgation squad that can take at least one long range antitank weapon other than a psycannon (plasma cannon/las cannon?)
(2) A brother captain with 2 wounds
(3) A piece of war gear for a hero/inquisitor like the space marine adamantine mantle (i mean c'mon arent we supposed to have access to the finest war gear and weapons...thats pretty fine).
(4) A slight points break for GK.
That's really it for me and even these i could live without. And by the way, i cant remember the post but we do get the rending Assault cannon for our Dreads. GW already confirmed this.
All in all i love the challenge and the fluff of the knights. They're hard to play with but i am learning that a strength 6 power weapon for all GKT is definately worth the points i think. And inquisitors and their retinue really can get some pretty cool toys. We are a tough army to play but a tough army to defeat as well.
nothing that you can't get from the armoury, like an auspex instead of that sage personOriginally Posted by bccorinactually we are the simplest army to play with as we just anihalate anything we play, but yes, tanks are tough to destroy for us. We don't have any tanks like the predator to deal with stuff, we only have th landraider, which is a hell of a lot of points just to take out enemy armour.Originally Posted by bccorin
But against troops...They go splat!
Daemonhosts are too random for what they do. And how does something with base strength 6 not ignore power armor? How many people would rather have 2 GK Terminators than a single Daemonhost?
Other things of note:
-Why are GK Termies only allowed one special weapon upgrade when PAGKs are allowed 2?
-Why do Death Cult Assassins blow? They infiltrate, they move, then they get plastered the next turn by heavy firepower. A 5+ invulnerable save is useless vs. massed Lasguns. At least give them the IC ability and allow them to be attached to squads.
-For Radicals, I believe we should have a system for making Daemonic Weapons. We buy a regular weapon, and then we spend points on Daemonic Powers for the weapon (not unlike Dwarven Runes in fantasy). The more powers bought, the greater the Ld Penalty when it comes time to test for possession.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and address why most of the changes listed wouldn't wok for DH. Hate me if you must, but I believe that the Daemonhunters are NOT unbalanced or at any real disadvantage as an army.S6 weapons that strike at Initiative, free DSing regardless of scenario rules, the Aegis, Shrouding, and a FREE upgrade to Thunderhammer/SS. GK Terminators are already much better than standard ones.Originally Posted by poeticwarriorHammerhand is just a balled fist though. It doesn't cut through armor like choppas. It wouldn't have any other armor penetration because it isn't charged like a power weapon. Hammerhand is a way to get higher S at initiative. The tradeoff is that while you strike sooner, you don't strike as hard. If you want to strike hard, take a powerfist or thunderhammer. Fast AND high S would make it an essential weapon, and would basically break the game.Originally Posted by poeticwarriorPurgation squads are NOT meant to kill tanks. They are NOT Devestator squads. Purgations squads are meant to destroy Daemons - which they do extremely well. If you use them for other things, then that's your own problem. If you're in need of anti-tank, take something that's meant to kill armor.Originally Posted by poeticwarriorOk, I can't argue here. Official Quixos rules would be nice, even if he's dead.Originally Posted by poeticwarriorI think Death Cultists are worth more than they cost, but that's from my own experience. Culexus are great against the right enemies - granted, in 40K, there aren't many, so a Culexus will never have a place in an all-taker's list. Vindicares are pretty good actually if you use them on the right targets. Don't try and shoot anything in the HQ or Elite FOC slots. Don't try and kill tanks. Take out squad upgrades - heavy & special weapons, invisible powerfists, that kind of thing. Use his (extremely rare) ability to target ANY model he can see.Originally Posted by poeticwarriorI agree that the Justicar should be lowered, but I think the cost of a standard GK is fine. Why? You shouldn't be able to field many of them. Think about it: ignoring the Justicar, a squad of 10 marines would cost MORE than a squad of 5 GK, and the 5 GK pump out the same firepower, and have BETTER cc power. Justicars, I think, shouldn't cost double a regular GK. Perhaps only 15 more, which is more fitting for what is essentially a power weapon upgrade.Originally Posted by VorareWhy are you trying to kill tanks with an anti-Daemon army? Same as the Purgation complaint above - Daemonhunters kill Daemons, not tanks. Grey Knights have S6 in close combat, and S4-6 ranged weaponry abounds. AV12 and lower tanks (ie, most everything that isn't a monolith or land raider) are toast. If you play a game focusing on objectives and not just killing the biggest models on the table, you wouldn't have to worry about tanks as much. Plus, Dreadnoughts & Land Raiders/LRCs all have anti-tank weaponry. The only other additions I can think of would be Predators, Lascannons in squads, and Devestators, none of which fit the fluff of the army.Originally Posted by VorareI agree that some of the SM vehicle upgrades should be allowed for GK vehicles. But as for the rest - we CAN say it's because the codex is pre-4th. The SM codex includes changes that apply to all Imperial armies, even if that's yet to be officially addressed by GW. Use the SM codex's stats for assault cannons, teleport homers, bionics, etc.Originally Posted by Vengeance Strike LordWell, there was a two year gap between the DH codex and the SM codex. And an edition change in there. Regardless of the order of release, things would have been screwy. Hell, the Ork, Eldar, DE, and Tyranid codecies have tons of rules that no longer apply because of the edition change. Let a few number changes slide - the DH codex is newer than most of the others out there.Originally Posted by Vengeance Strike LordI'd like this myself, but GW has said before that GK are NOT supposed to be mobile. Hence no Rhinos or Bikes either. GK are supposed to either march or Deepstrike.Originally Posted by Cosmic_mad_hatter42Try using an Inquisitor in an IG army. They're terrifying. Don't compare an Inquisitor to a Grey Knight (or any other SM), since they're barely even the same race anymore. Inquisitors have access to awesome wargear. SM/GK have superhuman traits. There's a difference.Originally Posted by Vengeance Strike LordAgain, you use the new SM codex's Bionics. It now functions as a second saving throw you take after a failed armor/invulnerable save.Originally Posted by Vengeance Strike LordAgain, not within the jurisdiction of GK.Originally Posted by bccorinI agree with this one. I'd pay another 10-20 points for it as well.Originally Posted by bccorinAgain, agreed. When the DH codex came out, that wargear was unique to the Salamanders chapter of SM (salamander mantle). Now that its a universal SM item, GK and/or Inquisitors should have access.Originally Posted by bccorinSee above. I think it's fine were it is, although I wouldn't mind a slight break on Justicars (do any other armies have squad leaders that cost double?)Originally Posted by bccorinMystic, not Sage. And a Mystic and Auspex actually work on different things - one deals with infiltrators, one deals with deepstrikers & summoned units.Originally Posted by Vengeance Strike LordSo, if DH is so easy to use, why do you have so many complaints with them? I agree with bccorin - DH is one of the more complicated armies to use well, but is satisfying when you do.Originally Posted by Vengeance Strike LordHigh S doesn't always imply sharp, just hard hitting. I think Daemonhosts are just random enough really - if you had complete control over them, you wouldn't be dealing with the forces of Chaos, now would you?Originally Posted by MagicJugglerNo explanation, other than that GKT also get FREE upgrades to TH/SS, which is like a second special weapon. GKT are more combat oriented, so get better combat upgrades. Oh, and power weapons all around.Originally Posted by MagicJugglerThey won't get IC because assassins are supposed to be loners, not followers or leaders. And I don't get why people think DCA suck - I love the little buggers. Their use requires a lot of skill in terrain-management, since yes, they DO die to concentrated fire. As with anything in 40K.Originally Posted by MagicJugglerInteresting, but I doubt it. Why? CSM don't have a similar system. I think a better solution would be having a small extra-armoury for Radicals, composed of Daemon weapons & gear. In an old WD there was a list of Radical weapons & gear, and I know that list exists inside Army Builder, but I'd like to see it added into the codex in the new edition for simplicity/officiality.Originally Posted by MagicJuggler
Now, in order to be completely hypocritical, my own list. If you have any ideas as to why these wouldn't work, say so:
-IST with heavy weapons, same as their Guard counterparts. My Armored Fists are better equipped now.
-Improved Comms as a DH upgrade - IG has them, and DH could really use them.
-The ability to give Justicars psycannons/incinerators, especially in Purgation squads. I know it's illegal, but it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.
-Jump packs & bikes for Inquisitors, adamantium mantle for Inq/GK Heros, and (wishful thinking) another item or two of Puritan wargear, to counter the WD-released Radical items.
a lot of good points there, but a few I don't agree with.(but I can't be bothered to list them right now)
and thunder hammers and storm shields can be taken by regular terminators so how is this an advantage?
If the codex was pre 4th ed, then why do they have the gets hot rule for their plasma guns?
And the daemonhunters may be an anti choas army, but even the codex says that it is still meant to fight other armies. So they still should have the anti armour guns that we have been talking about.
And yes, the dreadnoughts/landraiders may be able to take out armour, but the landraider can't destroy all enemy tanks on it's own. And you really want to have the dreadnoughts killing the enemy infantry.
PS. I may be mistaken about DH being an easy army to play, but as I use them as allies for my space marines, I can only go by what I keep on hearing people say about the DH (oh god! daemonhunters wasted my entire army! I killed like 6 of them!) Mr reasoning was, that if they are better than marines, then shouldn't they be easier to play with?