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The popularity of the "If You Could..." thread showed that there is a large body of suggestions for improving the Guard. However, the problem with that thread seemed to be a lack of focus on relevant subjects, or an over-emphasis on how the guard should get more plastic regiments. Given one mod's comment that such ideas could possibly be made into a supplemental book or the idealistic hope that GW will listen to player feedback and fix broken units in our codex (though hopefully not to the degree like in the Tyranid Codex of removing the instant-death rule just to make Warriors somewhat useful :huh, I figured I'd start a thread to discuss one aspect of changes to the Guard. If it goes over well and we reach a sort of consensus on one issue, I'll tackle the next broad subject and so on.
For the first topic I thought we'd try something small and then build up, namely weapons (as you probably inferred from the title :p). This covers weapon stats (because some could certainly use modification), availability to units, whatever. However, a couple ground rules for the discussion:
1.) Keep the discussion relevant--first person to make a pitch for new plastic models suffers a horrible, painful death....administered by the Inquisition's shortest, most Napoleonic inquisitor.
2.) Suggestions should have some attempt at balance. Remember we're thinking as game developers as much as just Imperial Guard players. So except for balancing obviously broken or over-priced selections, benefits also have to have incurred costs.
3.) No tampering with the basic lasgun. Hellguns represent the "hotshot lasguns" adequately enough
So here's what we've got on the agenda for discussion. For each item, I'd be happy if I could get feedback on the suggestions I put forth, as well as any alternate ideas you might have.
Mortar--At present the mortar is either too weak or too ineffective at penetrating armor to make an effective anti-infantry weapon. Strength 5 and/or AP 5 would help without unbalancing the weapon significantly so that the point cost would have to be adjusted.
Hellgun--I'm comfortable enough with the Strength 3, AP 5 current incarnation, but many others have been calling for either a Strength 4 version or a sort of overpowered "hotshot" lasgun. To maintain balance I'd say that a Strength 4 Hellgun would have to come with an AP to match the basic lasgun, to represent a simply larger blast rather than one with greater penetrating power. Opinions?
Shotgun--A common suggestion I've seen is that shotguns should utilize the flamer template to represent their spread. However this would work poorly because while a shotgun with pellets spreads outward in a cone, the power delivered decreases over distance. Thus, and with the intention of not overly changing the rules, I'd say leave the shotgun as an Assault 2 weapon with 12". However a Strength of 4, or perhaps a rule that each hit inflicted within 6" counts as two wounds could represent the close-ranged punch of a shotgun and make them a useful weapon for Special Weapons Squads (perhaps becoming a replacement for their lasguns at +1 point) or Rough Rider Squadrons.
Heavy Stubber--No intention to change the attributes of the weapon, simply to add it to the guard arsennel as a special weapon choice for a cost of around +10 points. It lacks the high strength and penetration of a plasmagun or meltagun, but could provide additional anti-infantry fire.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. Not too many subjects to tackle, just a few minor tweaks/suggestions to start the ball rolling.
Personally, I don't think the Hellgun or Lasgun need any change. And, as for the Shotgun, I think that the S should be doubled at 6" or less-more in line with video game shotguns then real ones, but a simple, effective change.
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Member of the Canadian Clan, eh.
Mech Tau Cadre: 2000 points, needs paint and magnets.
Paladins of Avalon (SW):-1500 points, needs paint.
I can't help but agree as far as lasguns and hellguns. Work just fine and seem balanced to me.
As to the shotgun: I saw your suggestion in the other thread and considered including it but ultimately had to disagree. I think the problem is that the rule is based on the effect of shotguns in video games, which aren't exactly true to life or even logic much of the time. Not to mention that 40K takes place at greater effective distances than most video games cover. The other problem is that doubling the strength means that at close range a shotgun would be just as effective as a point-blank tank-mounted multilaser, and even superior to a heavy machine gun firing reactive armor-piercing, explosive rounds (ie heavy bolter). Shotguns aren't always devastating weapons at close range though they can be grievous if used with great skill or luck. If none of the above suggestions work, perhaps giving the basic strength 3 shotgun the "Rending" attribute within 6" could represent their impressive stopping power without giving a guaranteed knockout weapon.
Your typical police or military shotgun is firing slugs, not shot so I would think str 4 ap 6 assault 2 would be good. As a special rule any model that makes its armour save must roll equal to or under it toughness on a D6 or the unit is unable to move the next turn while the hit model gets back to his feet. This could also be any roll to hit of 6 or some other thing to eliminate one die roll.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
Here is my idea for the shotgun
to represent the deadly spray and force:
That's it. no additional rules to remember. It will not be knocking out tanks nor does it match the sheer power of a bolt gun. It's a little better than a lasgun at close range with that change.
the heavy stubber would be a great addition to the guardsmen regular arsenal. Characterful. Though it's worse than a heavy bolter, I just like the idea behind it and how it looks. Heavy stubbers would also look nice on a sentinel.
Adding to your list... what if sentinels could carry a smallarms secondary weapon? like a twin linked lasgun or storm bolter.
*I don't play IG, so my opinion has no real weight. I just like the army and fluff.
Last edited by LostZaku; July 20th, 2005 at 02:41.
I think the mortar is fine the way it is. As far as the shotgun goes, either up the strength to S4 or make it so that the strength equals toughness to represent the stopping power of shotguns. As far as the hellgun goes, i'm fine with the strength and tougness, but I think the AP should be improved. I think that improving those weapons would encourage more elites choices, which need to be harder hitting anyways.
One thing I would like to see is maybe a multilaser available only to full-strength infatry squads or some kind of automatic rifle (something like the M249 SAW) as a special weapon. Noting fancy, just S3 Assault 2 or 3 with no AP and the ability to cause the enemy to take a pinning test. My reasoning for the pinning is that a lot of guard players like to replicate modern-day armies and that would encourage more tactical thinking instead of just using squads as cannon fodder. A lot of infantry tactics revolve around one squad laying suppressive fire to keep the enemy pinned so that another squad can flank them or assault them. I think that weapon should only be available to the regular infantry squads as it would make veterans squads a bit too assault oriented.
I would just like to see a few options that make Guard players less dependant on the Leman Russ and makes the grunts more dependable.
Me and my friend have always talked about the shotgun and how it should have some type of ability to make it more effective as a close quarters weapon. I think adding the ability of re-rolling to hit and wound at 6 inches or less would be effective and simple enough. It would be like like the melta gun's effect.
Helo's idea of knocking people down sounds cool, but it could confuse players. How about they would strike at -1 initiative when the shotgun users assualt the units that were hit?
The heavy stubber should already have been a selectable weapon, but it seems the only ones that can take them are Gangsters and Mutants.
As for mortars, lasguns, and hellguns, I think they are fine as they are too. Mortars are more meant as a pinning, continuous barrage style weapon than for real armor piercing power.
"Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the conquest of it." -Anon
I like the idea of re-rolling shotgun wound, a fine idea.
Mortars are fine the way they are. For the points, you get an indirect weapon, good range, and pinning ability. I guess you could have two mortars, like in real life. You could have the 60mm regular 10pt model, or the 80mm 20pt model, which would be S5. Something like that.
Hellguns IMO, should be S4. I would keep Stormtroopers the same point cost, but take away the free grenades, and make the Hellgun S4. Its AP is fine. You really should give your best troops a better weapon, not just a better looking one.
I'm all over the idea of Heavy Stubbers as regular troop options. Make it 8pts or something like that. It definatly fits the fluff.
Same with Multilasers in troop choices, why should Chimeras have all the fun?
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
[QUOTE=LostZaku]Here is my idea for the shotgun
It will not be knocking out tanks nor does it match the sheer power of a bolt gun. It's a little better than a lasgun at close range with that change.
acutally there is a "bolt" round used by necromunda enforcers
baciscally a boltgun that fires a h-bolter round
s5 ap4 18" assualt 1
basically the power of an h bolter round
Heavy stubber with pinning would be nice for a special weapon. The off set is that the army could target it separatly if they hadn't moved the turn before. Or just normal woul be nice. Imagine it, an infantry squad with a Heavy Stubber and a HB. Infantry killing galore.Originally Posted by bulldoglopez
I also think it would be fluffy for heavy weapons teams to be mounted in some kind of vehicle. I don't see the infantry lugging around 50 cals (autocannons?). Like the Eldar do it. I mean a lascannon model is taller than a gaurdsman. And it made of metal. I don't know how many of you have lifted a chunk of metal that big, but it is freaking heavy. I'd say the lascannon weighs 100 lbs and that conservitive.
Last edited by Forger of Civilization; July 20th, 2005 at 05:16.
Three Companies of the 26th Vinancium
143rd Airborne Badgers (99.9% done)
159th Corsair Rifles (35% done))
69th Armored Wall Busters (95% done)
Total 197 men, 12 tanks, 4 Heavy Artillery Pieces