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My DIY chapter, The Black Knights, have been bouncing between and weighing the possibilities of these two Advantage's.
1: Trust your Battle Brothers (True grit, counter attack)
2: Take the fight to them (Bolt pistol and CC wep for tac squads.)
Then I read over thema gain, objectivly.
QUOTE:: "Any model with a bolter in any Tactical squad in an army with Take the fight to them may replace it's bolter with a Bolt pistol and CC weapon for free." Not "You may replace every models Bolter with a BP and CCW"
The importance of this escaped me before, as I had just figured it meant a rip of of the Black Templar Tac Squad weaponry, when I read it again and voila! It hit me..
WE needn't give EVERY model in the tac squad a BP and CC wep. We can say do this..
TAC SQUAD QUINTAIN:
Vet Srg. With Power fist and Plasma Pistol
SM with Plasma Gun
5 SM with BOlters
3 SM with BP and CC wep
This squad doens't have much of a weakness at all!
THIS is a goldmine of tactical application. THis means our Tac squads can TRULY be outfitted for any role, I find this a wellspring of new idea's. I don't know if anyone else will use this, but I certainly plan to.
I don't mess around with traits much, but what you have found here does seem to be legal and quite interesting also. I don't know what variations of bolter:bp+CC weapon would be effective. You should try different ratios and see what works!
OK cool u found something that would work
but if u have true grit/counterattack "true grit means u basically get extra cc attack with all bolters
If u want sit back with that shoot ur bolters and then when they assault u ull fight a weakend unit with double ur attacks when being assaulted and having all guys get into combat
these 2 traits combined are pointless because u get the same attacks but a bolter is better than a bolt pistol unless u plan on moving up and assaulting but id rather move up doble my bolter shots then take the assault from ur opponent
trust me just dont combine those 2 traits!
O forgot to mention that 5 marines = better than 10 because if u got 2 units taking 10 guys out would grant u able to take 2 LST WICH KICK ASS (well u'd have to drop 10 pts somewhere else also to do that but u get the idea)
Last edited by SHEPHERD; July 24th, 2005 at 03:16.
The weakness of that squad is that it sacrifices both shooting and close combat ability and ends up worse off as a whole in both. If you want to be able to shoot and still be able to defend yourself, a bolter with true grit is your best option. If you want to take the fight to the enemy, then go with the bolt pistols. There is only one time that a bolt pistol&CCW is better than a bolter & CCW with True Grit and that is on the turn that YOU charge. If you get charged the BP/CCW gives no advantage and you don't have countercharge. If you can't get within charge range in the movement phase you can get 2x the number of shots with the bolter vice the bolt pistols. Against enemies with poor armour saves you are better off shooting them within rapid fire range than charging them. This is especially important against DE and genestealers because they will go first if you charge and they won't get saves against bolter fire. Against enemies with low intitiative, the pistol is twice as good as long as you can guarantee that you are the one to charge because you can shoot before charging effectively adding another attack on the tur you charge.
IMHO, BP/CCW is better left to units that can take other assault specific upgrades such as a few power weapons or Furious charge. Under 3rd edition BP were better if you planned on moving the unit at all, True Grit or not. Under 4th True grit is much more effective.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
Agreed, by trying to do combat and shooting you end up with a unit good at neither, true grit is eminent in 4th Ed.Originally Posted by helotaxi
He who defends everything defends nothing.
Every time you read this sig: a fairie dies!
Those two traits are a pretty bad combo. True Grit is a trait designed for you to get charged. Take the fight to them is a trait designed for you to charge. Don't mix and match. It's like putting a flamer and a lascannon in the same squad and saying "it's in case they get close." How are they going to get close? They have a lascannon, for Christssake. It doesn't need to be close. Do you get the point?
I don't think he's talking about combining them necessarily, at least not in the same squad. The way I read the idea was to take "take the fight to them" and only give half the squad BP/CCW and leave the other half with bolters. Still a really bad idea.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
could be nice,
or just play space wolves
Its seems legal enough, but I'd just stick with the true grit + counter attack.
In my opinion you get the best of both worlds with true grit, you dont sacrifice your bolters yet you still get an extra attack, ok, so you dont get 3 attacks on the assault, but wouldnt you rather rapid fire then assault anyways?
Basically you have to chose between a ST4 hit, or a ST4 AP5 hit, to me that isnt a hard choice.
Originally Posted by helotaxiI think he is pretty clear that they are combined in the one squad.Originally Posted by Faust_Vermillion
Let us just analyse the situations for a minute.
Squad Configurations (ignoreing special weapons, and with no heavy weapons):
1. Just Bolters and True Grit.
2. Just Bolt Pistols/CCW.
3. A mix of both in the one squad (5 of each).
A: Shooting and not moving.1. Just Bolters and True Grit.10 shot at 24 inches, 20 shots at 12 inches.2. Just Bolt Pistols/CCW.20 shots at 12 inches.3. A mix of both in the one squad (5 of each).5 shots at 12 inches, 20 shots at 12 inches.
As can be seen, in this situation, their is no difference at 12 inches, but the bolters are twice as effective at 24 inches.
B: Shooting and moving.1. Just Bolters and True Grit.20 shots at 12 inches.2. Just Bolt Pistols/CCW.10 shots at 12 inches.3. A mix of both in the one squad (5 of each).15 shots at 12 inches.
The bolters are still the most effective configuration in this situation.
C: Assaulting (including permitted shooting, and assuming that the SM have the higher initiative and all of them get into base contact).1. Just Bolters and True Grit.20 close combat attacks.2. Just Bolt Pistols/CCW.10 shots, plus 30 close combat attacks.3. A mix of both in the one squad (5 of each).5 shots, plus 25 close combat attacks.
In this situation, the BP/CCW combination os the obvious pick for the best configuration. The mixed squad (which we are really interested in) gains 5 Bolt shots, and 5 close combat attacks over the Bolter and true grit squad.
D: Recieving the charge, or the second round of combat (keep in mind that B should be factored into a squad recieving the charge).1. Just Bolters and True Grit.20 close combat attacks.2. Just Bolt Pistols/CCW.20 close combat attacks.3. A mix of both in the one squad (5 of each).20 close combat attacks.
All are the same here.
So, we can see that the mixed squad is only better than the True Grit/Bolter squad on the turn in which it is assaulting. Even in the other rounds of a close combat, there is no benefit to using a mixed squad. And for this you are sacrificing the 24 inch range of the bolter when it hasn't moved, and 10 shots for each turn in which you move and fire.
It is your choice which congiguration you take, but I will stick wicth my CCW and Bolter tactical Marines, thank you.
Last edited by Corianis; July 25th, 2005 at 23:01.
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