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can space marines be a defensive army?

2K views 28 replies 24 participants last post by  BoxANT 
#1 ·
can SM be defensive, like I.G., where they can just sit back and shoot with massive firepower, or are they more well-suited for just running into the thick of it, and being more assault-orientated and agressive?
 
#2 ·
While it is possible to make a very shooty marine army, they are designed to be more like shock troops. In other words, think of them like Airborne Rangers- they are meant to strike quickly behind enemy lines, in close fighting, but lack the truly heavy firepower needed for protracted shooting and artillery. They have an above- average stat line for the basic troops and are quite flexible, but do not have a lot of slow, heavy armor at their disposal.


Oh, and for some reason I seem to be a thread- killer, so don't expect any more responses ;)
 
#3 ·
I'll break that trend, RJ :)

The Marines CAN be a really shooty army, if properly played. They can assemble a lot of very well-armed units-Devastator Squads, TLLC/ML-armed Dreadnoughts, Vindicators, Land Raiders, ect.
Here's a basic outline for a shooty Marine army:

HQ: Commander w/ Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
Elite: Dreadnoughts w/TLLC and ML
Troop: Combat Squads w/heavy weapons (I recommed Plasma Cannon and Plasma Gun) in a Razorback W/Lascannon
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Tornado with AssC and HB
Heavy Support: Devastator Squads w/weapons (Pick and choose)
Vindicators-Gotta love that Demolisher Cannon)
Predator Annihilators/Destructors (The Anni is far more powerful, but the Dest isn't bad, either, especially if you're dealing with more gribbly opponents, like Orks or 'Nids)
Whirlwind-Nastily powerful indirect firepower

Anyways, hope this helps.
 
#4 ·
If you field the right amount of Devs, definitely. However, you still won't be able to beat dedicated Shooty armies like IG, Tau and DA without some assault.

Really, I think the Marines greatest weapon (Vanilla) is rapid firing bolters.
 
#5 ·
Rapid firing bolters are what make marines effective at a "range" The bolter negates the lower armour saves, hits hard and has a decent range...a +3save t4 backing it up too.


Vs Shooty armies like Tau and IG you can't really expect to win due to the fact that they are built for nothing but shooty. Their units, unlike your's, cannot simply walk up to the enemy lines and start a fist fight without serious risk. Get a unit of guard in CC and giggle.
 
#6 ·
Space Marines can be very shooty, but they are held back against IG and Tau, because your troops are too expensive to just sit back and hold a gun. An IG veteran has BS4, can have three Plasma Rifles and a Lascannon in a sqaud, and is 8 points without the spec1al weapons. A Firewarrior has a S5 20" range gun and is 10points. Without upgrades and special weapons yours are 15. But get 3 Assault Marines in that 10 man IG squad or FW squad and you'll rip them apart.

Play against a Choas Army or Orks, and your better off sitting back and shooting, rapid fire etc.
 
#7 ·
Pluse Rifles are 30", Diggum. I'm guessing that was a typo. :)

And, yeah, a shooty Marine army wouldn't work against Tau or Guard. The Tau bring a LOT of volume in the form of pulse rifles, and a lot of quantity in the form of Railguns, Ion Cannons and Plasma Guns. Against Guard...well, I believe the words Leman and Russ can adeqatly sum up why they'd rape a shooty Marine army.
 
#8 ·
Broadside_Pilot said:
Pluse Rifles are 30", Diggum. I'm guessing that was a typo. :)

And, yeah, a shooty Marine army wouldn't work against Tau or Guard. The Tau bring a LOT of volume in the form of pulse rifles, and a lot of quantity in the form of Railguns, Ion Cannons and Plasma Guns. Against Guard...well, I believe the words Leman and Russ can adeqatly sum up why they'd rape a shooty Marine army.

yea I agree the land raider is great great transport. But won't stand up to a long range fight against the rus or a baski. But to help if I can field 2 dev squads with some extra guys in them to keep the big guns from getting killed. A Pred with HB's so you can move and fire. 2 squads of termis with ACs becuase the can shoot and fight if the bad guys get there. If your gona be shooty start with the termis on the board the're part of the fire power and dev squad defenders. Scouts with snipers are nice. Razorbacks with out anyone in them just because they don't take up a slot. Oh and the termi squads should have 6 guys in it so it can take 3 hits and still score. You still will lose to IG if you stay static. no one in my area plays tau so i've never played against them so I can't comment
 
#9 ·
Um...yes.

They've got that armour for a reason. Of course, they are better in CC than most other races - but that doesn't mean you can't get a bunch of Whirlwinds and start pounding.
 
#10 ·
Shooty marines are great. Especially when using the Dark Angels rules, gotta love being intractable.

Get a cheap master for HQ.

ML + TLLC dreads for Elite

6-man squads with heavy weapon and maybe plasma gun for Troops

Land Speeder Tornadoes for Fast Attack, great for claiming table quarters and objectives whilst still being shooty.

All the goodies you want for Heavy Support, except Land Raiders.


I'd say that a Marine Army can indeed out shoot Tau and IG. All we need is some cover and some lascannons.
 
#11 ·
Can SM be a defensive army? Uh of course heh, that's their best army..

The best 40k armies incorporate heavy shooting with counter assault which is what SM excel at. Stock up on assault cannons, your las/plas squads and get a chaplain with an assault squad and you'll do well
 
#12 · (Edited)
No. SM are a rapid deployment elite force. They only defend if their homebase is attacked. Their forces never stay still long enouph to set up defence. They are called in whe the Guard are not enouph. They never keep main forced in one place.

Edit: I didnt read most of the post, I thought they ment like a planetary defence army.
 
#13 ·
From the context, the question wasn't "Are Sm in the fluff a defensive army?" so much as "Are shooty SM armies good?"
The answer is without a doubt: YES
The reasons:
Power Armour
Bolters
BS 4
Even at xx points each, you can still fit 70+ marines in a 1500 point army
That includes plasma guns and heavy weapons in pretty much every squad, and one dedicated counter-assault squad.
 
#15 ·
Space Marines can be a great defensive and very hard to beat army against assault orientated armies.They have heavy firepower and loads of bolter shots.But if you were going to make a shooty Space Marine army you cant really go all out shooty.You will need one or two assault units.One of the best things of a SM army is that they have the ability to outshoot and out assault most armies,thats their strong point.
Cheers,
Tycho
 
#17 ·
ickle said:
space marines are supposed to balance assault and shooting but a few predators will always wipe the smile off a tank oriented ig army. I LOVE LASCANNONS!
Agree. SM should have a balanced mix of forces, with at least one unit of troops dedicated to shooting (Devs) in a CC army or some dedicated CC boys (assaulters, DC, Termies, u name it) in a mainly shooting army. I play BA and I've got my Death Company amidst all my las/plas Tac squads and Landspeeders and everythin.
Actually SM can outshoot Tau - if u can kill the Hammerheads and battlesuits faster than they kill ur Devs and Lascans, of course. It's all about those LOS and range stuff... However, I find that normal SM can usually hold their own in a firefight with normal Tau FWs...
 
#18 ·
I would definitely say they can be, and quite a good one at that, for reasons listed above (Bolters, Power Armour, Predators). But there can be a couple of little troubles, vulnerability to Close Combat is still there, though Marines are still pretty good, and the other one is covering ground.

If you're playing defensive and letting your opponent come to you, the relatively small amount of troops you get for marines can be a problem when it comes to holding ground, so you may want to consider keep them on one half of your table edge ("denied flank" I think it's called) - this also means that a squad of Bike / Jump Pack Assault Marines can be used as a CC defence force over the smaller area, as they have the speed to head off any CC threats in the smaller amount of table.

I await your objections lol.
 
#19 ·
The beautiful thing about marines is that they can be built as any type of army you wish, and they can do it well.

As far as shooty SM goes, we can do some pretty horrid stuff. 6 Devastator squads can put the fear into any army, even IG and Tau. 12 infiltrated HB's is nothing to joke around about. Back that up with 12 Missile launchers and a couple infiltrating Plasma/Las squads and you have the makings for an incredible army.

Secondly, DA are the "Shooty" chapter. They have a couple special rules that give them an incredible advantage in shooting matches.

Still, I would always include at least one squad tuned for assault. SM are very well balanced and there is no reason to throw that advantage ourt the window.
 
#20 ·
although space marines can easily defend they are still meant to take the initiative and dictate where the enemy moves
oh, and space marines are good shooters against tau as the have better bs and bolters have the same effect on tau as pulse rifles have on spaceys (tau have range, spaceys have armour)
 
#21 ·
Space marines can be used effectively in a defensive role, I play Dark Angels, and my regular opponent plays tyranids, as such I use alot of "shooty" units with one or two conterattacking units as I will never get the charge against Tyranids.
 
#22 ·
Space Marines are an extraordinarily good all around army. They can excel in both shooting and in assault, although they may not be able to trump so-called specialist armies in either (IG & Tau for shooty, DE and orcs for assault). If you were to take a shooty army with Honor your Wargear (up to 6 devastator squads) you could rain some serious hurt down on your opponents every single turn. Especially if you had filled those dev squads up with missle launchers.....Mmmmmmm....24 blast templates a turn.....cooked bugs....mmmm. Plus dont discount the power of the ALMIGHTY BOLTER!!!! That sucker will reap through most xenos units like no-one's business.

Now that said, I agree with what was said earlier....you probably wont have as much dominance shooting wise against a shooty based army such as the Tau or the IG. Simple reason being that they can put more shots on target in a given shooting phase. This is why you should always keep at least one good assault unit to mess up those cheaply priced shooting squads that dont do too well in CC. One good reason to take a Chaplain led assault squad.....you can probably massacre anything short of marines in one good assault phase. Use them for mopping up danger spots, and lets the missles and bolters (and some lascannons) do the rest for ya.
 
#23 ·
Yes SM can be very effective at the shooting game.

you best setup is a barebones commander backed up by alot of 5-6man tactical squads w/ no vetsgt. and alot of dev squads of course. perhaps a whirlwind or 2.



but personally imo the real strength of SM is being able to play against their opponents weakness.

against IG you have to push the assault.

against Ork you have to hurt them before they assault you.

granted this mentality works best when you're making a "take all comers" list... if you *know* that you'll be facing Nids.. you may want to make a shotty list (w/ counter-assault).
 
#24 ·
Damit all, you go on holiday and come back to find a Q like this has been answered to death.

YESYESYES, my Sons of Medusa are basically a shooty army, they stand there and shoot, no assault squads, no terminators, just stand and shoot
 
#26 ·
Actually, five or six man squads in a shooty army is fairly silly. Since a shooty army can expect to be shot at in return more than an assaulty army - after all, you'll rarely charge into CC - then you should want to keep numbers high enough to minimise the chance of having to take a morale test for casualties in shooting.
 
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