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I want to know what you guys think about units that should be really good and cost effective in theory, but when you play the game they always go wrong. I also want to know about what you guys think about the luck factor (not dice) such as terrain, deployment, first turn, etc and the effect on the units?
Plasma is right at the top of my list for bad in practice. It always get hot right when I need it to kill a Terminator.
In 40K first turn is probably the most important die roll you make and it decides if your tanks are gonna get to shoot before blowing up to a lucky shot. The deployment is not such a big deal for most things but it really hurts a few units. Most notably is the Devestator squad and it's clones, These bad boys offer almost unkillable heavy weapons for a fair price, but if you deploy them first then all of your opponents stuff goes on the otherside where they cant get a LOS to save their lives. It makes them good area denial, but hardly worth 200+ pts. Finally terrain is definetley the make-or-brake for assault armies. BP&CCW scouts are real cheap, but if you dont have a nice piece of woods or a wall to infilitrate them behind, the're nothing but appetizers while the rest of your army catches up.
There is a way to set up your Devastators last :rolleyes:
The trait 'See, But Don't be Seen' on a squad of 8 Devastators with 4 Missiles...224 points with the ability to kill anything and survive at least 2 turns.
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I disagree very strongly that deployment doesnt matter. Deployment is a huge part of the game and so is denying your opponent key deployment areas
This is why it's important to have units that can force your opponents hand when deploying, such as cheap elites or cheap troops
Knowing where exactly to put your troops is very important assuming you play on a legal board with 25% terrain with some size 3.
Here is my list of what is most important in 40k
1) Army composition - There is no way to get around this, if you build a really bad army you will do really badly against an opponent of equal skill (Key phrase, equal skill). This applies in many other non-40k games and definatly in every miniature and CCG Ive ever played. You make a bad army or a bad deck and you are at a severe disadvantage. This is fine if you're playing an opponent who is of lower caliber but pointless if you're playing someone on your skill level
2) Overall tactics - This is where "skill level" comes into play, and really is already applied to #1 and #3 because a good player will make a good army and deploy well. HOwever during the actual game a player who outplays his opponent can certainly win even if using a subpar army. I've won games with stupid blood angel bike armies just because of using attrition warfare and never getting close
3) Deployment - This is more than just placing units down randomly. Poor deployment gives you a very large disadvantage as well. If you spread out your forces and your opponent consolidates on your weak flank then you just lost, doesnt really matter what you have. However if you deploy in such a way as to force him to deploy poorly then you just got a pretty big ingame advantage. Skilled deployment can negate the first turn advantage and give you an advantage for going last. Bad deployment (IE too aggressive, or just foolish) makes the first turn even more devestating if you dont get it.
4) First Turn - If you deploy correctly then first turn isnt a huge deal. Second turn can easily win you games because the opponent cannot challenge your actions on the last turn of the game
5) Probability - Sometimes your "luck" is just bad and sometimes it's higher than average. However you should never EXPECT to get higher than average and instead you should always stack the odds in your favor. I rarely rely on luck because when I do something I tend to overdo it so the results are virtually gauranteed. There are times when you might have to play the odds and perhaps you'll win, but dont base your games on it. The more games you play the more even your luck will be
Also I completely disagree about plasma. Come on, you have a 16% chance to overheat (And then a 33% chance to die) and OVER a 50% chance to kill a marine per shot. That is WELL worth the risk and it is why plasma is the best special weapon hands down. You gotta be willing to take a little risk in order to be effective. Complete safety never got anyone anywhere. Every marine army should have a good amount of plasma
I agree that Plasma is worth it (otherwise I wouldn't play it) I was just saying that it was one of the things that looks good, but can sometimes do badly if your dice disagree with you. 1st Turn is incredibly important to doing well, not only does it allow you to have a full turn with your vehicles, it gets your assault armies a little closer. Last turn can be valuable, but often the game is decided before it gets to that point.
Anything can have a "bad day". in a game of statistics, you'll eventually be on the wrong side of the bell curve...
i actually think plasma is great in practice and paper. yes, sometimes you get fried and that sucks, but think of all the times you've been doing the frying? hehe.
And anyone who says deployment doesn't matter, obviously doesn't play as IG. deployment is one of (if not thee) most important part of the game (since you don't do alot of moving).
and a good deployment and virtually neutralize the benifit of 1st turn (not much LOS).
hmm i guess my pick for "looks good on paper" but doesn't do as well in game...
would be sniper rifles. they always seem to underperform
Sniper rifles, like BoxANT said. I mean it looks so good! 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound. But they are crappy cuase you either have no good target or cant kill anything with them. Sure you can take out a gaurdsman or something, but nothing else. Another one is maybescouts in general. Scouts never work for me, ever. Its cuase i normally roll 3's, and i can never make 4+ saves. So they die. A horrible bloody death.
My list of whats important is sorta the same.
Even the crappiest army could beat another army, if you do the tactics really really well. Especially if you know what needs to be sacrificed to win the game for you.
Obviously a crappy army is gonna die, unless your opponent is so stupid that they make horrible mistakes. Like for instance, in 500 points you dont want to take a bunch of super on crack chaos marines and have maybe 10 of them and your hq against a real army (has happened to me before).
3) terrain & deployment
Im sticking these together cuase they both matter in the beggining. Obviously when you deploy you are going to be around or in some terrian. With all the new hull down rules, positioning your tanks is very important, and of course you want to put your guys somewhere safe against a shooty army. And once the game starts you need to move from cover to cover or stay in cover while shooting, unless your suicidal. And dont forget against those assualty armys getting to hit first when they charge you will help a bit.
4) Probability. You know what this means, i try not to rely on luck, but i assume that i will get a certain number of hits when i shoot, and a certain number of casulties. This matters in the planning, cuase i figure how many sqauds it wilkl take to damage or wipe out a unit.
5) first turn. When i deploy i stick everything in cover if i can, and with tanks i put there front facing towards the enemy, and try to get it hull down. I try to make it so even if i get the second turn, or if i get first, i can get enough firepower in the first round to take out threats.
Back from a long adventure.
you guys actually plan whats going to happen during a battle ?
that mustve taken ages
personally the good looking thing on paper and bad in practice for me are assault cannons.
I rolled 4 1's twice.
the best thing is plasma cannons (i never miss)
the importance of terrain
for me is cover (yesterday i had to make 20 cover saves and i failed 1 for some reason)
and the first turn even though it doesnt matter much, for my dark eldar it means everything.
But for my marines i dont care much cos they are meant to take hits anyway :lol:
ive found terminators rather lacking every time i use them sadly. (on paper they are quite nice but on the tabletop you might aswell paint them with bulls eye's.)
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[16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
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You know I've always thought about ratios and "likely" hood of things that could go wrong with my list to be a real part of this game.
The least effective Marine unit I've ever used whould probly be either my scouts or my Devastor squad. Scout really require a skill to use. Dont put them too close to the enemy, just let them soften them up, etc.
My Devastors, somehow always miss or almost always.
As far as luck goes, war isn't nessisarlly about luck its more about instict. So your oppenet can see your assualt squad approaching his hq squad, his natural reaction will be to protect his valuable units. So alot of time things we do in Warhammer (and life) are pretty predicable, you just need to learn to counter a common 'move', and better that move.
Oh and I dont belive in luck.....(picks up tails up penny, piano falls on head)
The guilty laugh while the innocent suffer.............WELL WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!!