Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
There was a thread a while back about the new nids... Read it through before playing last night. I was defending in a meat grinder against a friend of mine, 2000pts each. I've been playing WH and DH for a while, both against his old nids and his IG. Always had brilliant successes with WH and held myself with DH (1 minor vic 2 minor defeats).
So I decide to go with a mass army, since a) I only have to have 1 guy standing to win, so might as well start out with a lot and b) there seemed to be a consensus that enought bolt shot would bring down most nids. Without putting down my whole army list, it looked like this: GK grand master and retinue (3 GKT) 2x3 GKT, 2x10 GKPA (non-DS), 2x8 stormtroopers, 2x20 SOB and 2xdreads (AC/ML). Thats 30 Stormbolters, 40 bolters, 14 hellguns, 4 plasmaguns, 2 AC and 2ML...
My friend chewed through mt army by turn 3, no sweat. I mean, it's not just that I played badly or that the dice gods wanted me dead. We ran over the game and lists since he now knows my DH pretty well, and decided there was not much I could do!!!
First: his fleet/beast gaunts and flying swarms could pretty much cross the table in 2 turns (they where on me by the end of turn 1, then turn 3 and would have kept coming with the sustained attack rule). No problemo, I just had to keep shooting them, but then again, if I kept shooting them, I didn't shoot all my bolter mass at the MC to get those precious 1-2 wounds each turn!!!!! Anyways, he had tought of putting 3x8 gaunts and 3x3 swarms, and that was too many units for me to shhot effectively each turn, so 2 packs of swarms passed (the other 4 units wiped out), stalling a squad of troopers and some PAGK.
Second. His 3 zooantropes tore through my dreads like wet paper with their St 10 psychic attacks (even my psychic hood couldn't stop them all with their Ld 10)
Third: His broodlord and retinue infiltrated out of LOS at 12". Charged a squad of PAGK with 5x In 6 WS 6 St 6 power wep claws. His retinue with rending finished the job. He consolidated in a squad of SOB, stalling both units for the remainder of the game. I tried to counter-charge with termies, but Mr Broodlord and friends tore through them (damn In 6!)There you go, half my shooting gone!
Fourth: hi fexes and tyrant shot my stormtrooper with their template weapons Not a lot, just enough to dull them down to 3-4 men inefficient units.
Then the raveners started DS: my HQ (GKGM and 3 GKT) had finally tore through a stray pack of swarm only to be charged by the Hive Tyrant (only had base contact with the guard, of course) and raveners that had DS the turn before. Of course, the 3 ravs, the 2 Tyrant guards and HT are In 5 and all but HT are rending. Thats 15 attacks. My GKGM killed the 3 raveners, but all his retinue perished.
And anyways, it was the end of turn 3, I had: 1 GKGM in close with HT and 2 Tyrant guards, 20 SOB and 3 stormies about to get charged by the 3 other raveners. He had: 2 carnifexes (1 had 1 wound left), all his troops (sustained attack), 3 zooanthropes, and 3 lictors could jump out of ANY piece of terrain with little or no scatter and charge the same turn with each 3 WS, In and St 6 rending attacks.
So, to conclude, my shooting was completely ineffective against this army (either I killed easily troops with sustained attack, or had to shoot T6 save 2+ MC) and my CC was ineffective also (I always had less In, less # of attacks and faced hi-St rending attacks). Was it just the sustained attack rule that gave and insurmountable advantage to the nids, or are they just tooled to wipe-out DH? My friend sugested that I should have taken the fight to him, but then again with his high number of units and all that terrain, It would have been foolhardy to DS, not mentionning that the squad would have been quickly overrun either by more efficient CC troops. I know i'm an OK general on the battefield, but usually an excellent planner (some of my friend would jokingly say powergamer!). Before building an army, I'll usually go throught both my codex and my ennemy's to tool my army. This time, I didn't have the new nids codex. But I'm really at a loss on how to defeat the new nids with my GKs...
So, any toughts???
ps By the way, I refer here to almost pure GK maybe with allies. I don't like playing an IG army with 5-6 DH models and call it a DH army Altought I find them EXTREMELY hard to play compared to my sisters, I like my little guys in the grey armor!
Last edited by boreas; September 9th, 2005 at 14:25.
First off, as cool and useful as GKT may be, they aren't a smart move vs Tyranids. For each GKT, you can get two PAGK, which gives you twice as much ranged and assault power. Take a BC for an HQ, without bodyguard, and stick him into a PAGK unit. I'd also give him a psycannon, to take advantage of the stable platform that is a terminator (so the PAGK can advance, but still shoot at 36").
IST aren't too useful versus Tyranids, unless you bring a Chimera (and avoid the temptation to put Heavy Flamers on it, you won't get a chance to use 'em against Nids). A minimum IST unit with a Heavy Bolter Chimera is handy, solely for the transport's guns (oddly, a Chimera with two Heavy Bolters is cheaper than two GK with psycannons). Unload the IST (could be worth giving the unit a special weapon or two - I suggest grenade launchers for the template) and use them and their ride independently.
For a fairly small cost, give each Dreadnought "Blessed". It gives them the GK's Aegis special rule. Aegis with Ld10 is handy, and should save your walkers a couple of times (but still, it isn't a guarantee). Target those 'thropes! I'd go with a Plasma Cannon/ML on one (for the templates - vs troops) and an Assault Cannon/DCCW on the other (vs TMC's).
SoB I wouldn't bother with at all, really. They may be cheap, sure, but GK have stormbolters. And yes, I know that you can get 2 SoB for slightly less than one GK, but stormbolters are assault, meaning that you can freely move about and whatnot, which is worth the cost imo.
For GK, get plenty of medium sized units. 3+ units of 5-6 is the way to go. That way your squads can target seperate enemies better, and are still large enough not to just fall over in a fight (as long as you keep them all within range of supporting one another, really). Could be worthwhile to stick a psycannon into a unit or two, just for the heavy bolter-ish-ness of the gun. Or take one GK unit, minimum sized, with two psycannons, and use them as a firebase. I really can't stress how useful a psycannon is against all manner of Tyranids. Incinerators, on the other hand, are nearly useless due to the bugs' speed.
Fought them once so far.
Did you know you can get a holy hull for Dreads and LRC's, letting you use the Aegis rule? It's like 5 pts.
Al GK and GKT stayed in cover.
Hive Tyrant was killed by anti-tank Dreadnaught.
Lictors assault my mini-purgation squad (5GK, 2 of them psycannons). Both psycannons die, but so did the lictors.
There was alot of bouncing of hormogaunts off GKT in cover.
LRC manages to catach the genestealers (maxed out squad) and brood lord as they were making a run for it across open ground. 10 GK deploy. Two incinerator kill most of the GS (ap4) storm bolters kill the rest. The TL Assxault cannon kills the Brood lord. The Gk did not get to assault, they were sad.
1500 point battle, the tyranids were completely annilated with 900 pts of GK left.
Sir_Prometheus, could you post the list you used? I would sure like to see what you beat the Nid's in 1500 looked like. I've only played them in 1000pt. battle so far and won with everything except 1 terminator (missed a 2+ from a barbed strangler ), and 3 PAGK (hormies hurt even when there's only 6 left in the squad)
5th E Sand(Grey) Knights: 11-3 (retired) 5th E Eldar: 37-4 (retired) 5th E Wolves 5-0
GM. 2GKT, 1 incinerator
3GKT, 1 psycannon
5 PAGK, 2 psycannon, auspex
1 Dreadnaught, TLLC, ML, HK Extra armor
1 Dreadnaught AC, CCW, Incinerator, Extra Armor, smoke launcher
1 LRC w/ 10 PAGK, 2 incinerators, Teleport homer.
It is exactly 1500 pts. This list has proved really, really, robust. It's more armor than people expect in 1500 pts, it's more anti-tank than they expect from GK, there are no infantry on the board, and everyone can get in range of the enemy rapidly, with the exception of the 5GK squad, which sit on top of some building acting as a mini purgation squad.
Sounds like you had a really tough game. I might be able to help you out with some things the next time you play. First off the grey knights all have the ageis, if you read further on in the description it says that it can be used as the ageis or a psychic hood. A psychic hood works the same way as the ageis except for the fact that the opposing psychic power doesn't necessarily have to effect grey knights so they still can try to nullify the power before it goes off. Thats not the kicker though. It says that every greyknight has one but you only roll one time for the squad because its channeled though the justicars, bro. Capt. or Grandmasters. So if you have multiple squads of grey knights on the table you have multiple chances to try and stop any of the nastyness that he might throw out at you. Another point that you might want to consider this the fact that sure brood lord can infiltrate and be out of line of sight 12in away but if you take a close look at the book it says they have to be more then 12 or more than 18 inches away thus he can put them 12.1 inches away but he still wont be able to get the charge in the first turn.
How was your set-up in the game. IE. did you deploy really really close to him? or did you play some what conseritatively and let him come to you? A tactic that I have used when I play agianst the nids is mass charging. Try to get his MC such as the tryants or Fexes as close as you can. Then charge him with everything you have. They will be able to take out the tyants or fexes without too much of a problem. I agree with what other people said about not taking too many terms. agianst the nids I would only go with like a bro cpt. and a small retinue. I play a pure grey knight list at 1850 and so far it hasn't let me down at all. Grey knights can lay down a horrendus amount of fire power if used correctly.
I used the psychic hood, but with their Ld 10, zooanthropes are hard to beat. Next time I'll play him, I'll cut the sisters and termies and add 2 more squads of PAGK for a total of 4. I'll add 2 psycannons to 2 squads, leave one bare and put 2 incinerators in the fourth, which i'll put in a LRC (to shoot/charge an eventual genestealer/carnifex/other). I'll gice blessed and extra armour to the dreads and equip them with TLLC/ML (so as to keep them at more than 40" if possible).
Last game, I held back, hoping to just shoot down everything that came at me. Next time, I'll try being more aggressive. I guess the "sustained attack" his a bit overpowering in nids, though. Without it, I would have to worry about troops by mid-2nd turn, unlike last game when I got swamped the whole time..... I'll post a list sometime soon!
Phil, who won't sell his DH to buy a Death Guard army after all
Originally Posted by Sir_Prometheus
Ummm, dude? You have one troops choice... did you forget to post something up?
My brother plays Nids, and I beat him cuz he''s never played before and I'm smarter. But we're not operating at optimal capacity vs. nids.
A man's at odds to know his mind, for his mind is aught he has to know it with.
No, he has 2 troops choices, one 5 man gk squad, and 10 gk in the LRC,however, he only has 2 GKT in his GMs retinue, which is illegal since you need at least 3. Unless when he wrote incinerator, he meant that there was one more GKT with an incinerator.Originally Posted by JustikarYuri
Wow, you're in DeathWing country with that model countOriginally Posted by Sir_Prometheus