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Well its been a little while since I've done one of these threads, so I figured we may as well try and cover the rest of the bases so I can finalize a compilation of all our ideas here. To that end and because I don't think either of these topics will yield any enormous controversey and because none of them require dramatic, sweeping changes, I decided to combine two sections for this thread: Troops and Heavy Support. As usual, please limit all responses to the two listed subjects. That aside, everyone should feel free to provide their own take on the suggestions made here as well as provide original ones of their own.
Heavy Stubbers--These weapons can be selected as special weapons in infantry or conscript squads (for +10 and +15 points respectively).
Chimera--The Chimera has the option of becoming open-topped to reduce their base cost by twenty points. Models can embark or disembark from the sides or rear, and the hull lasguns and Amphibious special rules are lost.
Numerous people have pointed out that heavy stubbers should be more widely available, as they are currently only mounted on vehicle pintle mounts. No rule changes, just another heavy weapon that can only be fired if the unit is stationary. As for the Chimera change, its to make Mechanized lists a little more feasible, where you could have troops mounted in the equivalent of trucks to make Panzer-Grenadiers.
Leman Russ Exterminator--Back as a regular heavy support choice. There are still plenty of models from Games Workshop in circulation, Forgeworld makes conversion kits, and they're not that difficult to convert on your own. Very versatile and useful vehicle.
Leman Russ Conqueror--I think this vehicle lost its versatility when we got the abilty to fire ordance on the move in 4th edition, but I'd include them at least as an option requiring a doctrine point.
Leman Russ Vanquisher--Available with a doctrine point as a 0-1 choice. They're rare but if you want to spend a doctrine to get its excellent anti-tank ability, you should be entitled.
Griffon--I wouldn't use these tanks, but I'm sure some would like to see them back in our arsennel. Dunno if they should require a doctrine point or not to use.
Preliminary Bombardment--If I recall correctly the guard had something like this back around 2nd edition or so. Either that or a similar idea has appeared elsewhere, where the Guard can purchase a preliminary bombardment. If the scenario would already grant them one, then they can re-roll the dice to see if a unit is hit. Cost around 30-40 points. Good for drop troop armies.
Medium Tank--Another interesting option I've seen suggested is a kind of medium battle tank for the Guard, something lighter than the Leman Russ. My thoughts would be something based on the Chimera chasis, like how the Salamander is. No ordance weaponry, like 2-3 heavy weapons, comparable to a Space Marine predator in terms of number of weaponry and armor. Possibly allow 1-2 to be selected per force organization slot, but they can operate independantly of each other (ie don't have to be grouped into squadrons). Something like the Salamander (turret autocannon and hull heavy bolter) with a little extra punch or like a Predator Destructor would be about right. Probably require a doctrine point, but it would be cool to be able to field several medium battle tanks that can roll at the opponent blazing, rather than the normal ordance battering Russes.
Leman Russ Demolisher--Not so much a suggested change but just an observation I've felt like making that doesn't really deserve its own thread: anyone ever notice that the codex and guard fluff describes the Demolisher as an infantry-support tank, yet it is surprisingly useless in that role with its typical and fluffy armament (lascannon and plasma cannon sponsons)? If it moves at all it can only fire either its Demolisher cannon or a single weapon because they all have a strength greater than 7. Pretty crappy covering fire if you ask me. Only way to actually get effective covering fire is to give the Demolisher heavy bolters, in which case its not really any better than the standard Leman. Just felt like tossing that out there to see what everyone else thinks.
That about covers all my ideas for both subjects, so I'll open the floor up to the rest of you. Just remembers, Troops and Heavy Support ONLY! Look forward to seeing your responses.
I think they could have a jeep-like transport option for troop command squads. It could be alot like a Ork 'trukk'. I just think it would be cool with a junior officer zooming around the battle lines spouting out orders.
Maybe a few rules for this jeep could go like this
Name:F.T. (Fast Transport)
Front Armor: 11
Side Armor: 10
Rear Armor: 9
Type: Tank, open-topped, fast. Crew: Imperial Guard
Wepons: A F.T. is armed with a pintle heavy stubber, and smoke launchers
Transport Vehicle: A F.T. can carry up to 5 models. Independent characters that join a unit with a chimera may also travel in it.
Easy Exit: The F.T. is very easy to enter and exit out of. Thus a squad may move and shoot as normal after exiting a F.T. that hasn't move more than 6". Also if the F.T. suffers a glancing hit roll a D6 on a 5+ the squad is nocked out of the transport and must disembark.
Drive By Assualt: The F.T. is a very open viechle and can easyly be fired out of. Up to 3 models may fire there wepons out of the veichle, as long as they dont have a heavy profile. Note that if the viechle moved the models firing count as moving 6".
Thats all I got for now. This transport could be made using the VDR but this is my idea of the 40k style jeep.
The guilty laugh while the innocent suffer.............WELL WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!!
If It is open topped, then everyone inside (kinda) can shoot out of it. Als o how in the hell could it have AV 9. Why not make it like a raider with scaling nets but maybe not as fast.
I was thinkin 6 person capacity trukk kinda thing with movement of 18. (Obviously It wouldn't be orky. Just a big open floor thing on wheels)
Or possibly Capacity 10 with specialized troops that are real good at riding in it. Like a vet squad. It would have like a 0-1 choice maybe and be alot cheaper than a chimera. I personally like the chimera and would still pick it but maybe this as a faster cheaper option.
Last edited by Catachan Devil; September 27th, 2005 at 06:29.
I'd rather say that we keep it at the points it is now, but give it 12-11-10 armour and the option to take an autocannon turret for 20p. I know that Autocannon is in Imperial Armour, but I want it in my Codex.Originally Posted by Sokhar
I like the idea of using heavy stubbers in line squads. Would it be excessive in terms of variety to give them the option of multilasers for +15 points?
They shall be my Imperial Guard and they shall know some fear...
10 pts for a Heavy Stubber in a Inf. squad is way cheap considering the usage-impact, on the other hand the Stubber is expensive for 15pts in a Supportsquad since you can have the hvy Bolter instead.
An opentopped chimera would be great since you can charge from it after driving and it wont matter if you fire your plasmagun or simular since you already are opentopped... and the fireslots.. :o ... and that vehicle should be 20pts cheaper!!!?
Commander NoOne--Pretty nice looking vehicle you've outlined there. I'd considered a sort of mini-transport for command squads and such, but never really gotten around to making stats for one. Two small changes I'd make is to probably just say it can carry 6 people rather than 5 + independant characters, for simplicity sake. And with your rule for glancing hits, I'd say maybe just a 4+ for any glancing or penetrating hits then they have to disembark and are entangled? Anyway, just random thoughts. You got a rough point total to go with that vehicle?
Catachan Devil--The VDR rules list armor 9 as a possibility, but only really applicable for either civilian vehicles or the most lightly armored and heavily exposed rear armors. I think it accurately represents vehicles with very little protection or exposed ****pits (like a German half-track). Seems like it would make sense here, and it counters the somewhat more heavily armored front section. Not sure about a "fast Chimera" or specialized infantry for it, though. Never really heard of anything like that in fluff. However, you can find mention of staff cars, which is what NoOne's "mini-chimera" seems to represent well.
Kaiser--Increased side armor would be nice, but I'm not counting on it. And if we got it, I'd like it as some sort of optional upgrade, maybe like the vehicle doctrine "Side Skirts" in the Armored Company list. Right now my intention is to make a cheaper incarnation of the Chimera that can make Mechanized lists practical. Because right now you're putting a 60 point squad into a 80 point transport, and that just doesn't work real well.
Bobo--Damn, you caught me on an idea I forgot to mention. But yeah, I think it would be reasonable that guardsmen could carry around a multi-laser, no worse than a lascannon really, right? I'd say 10-15 points for a team, as a heavy weapon choice. And maybe make it available to Fire Support squads too.
Fonus--I wouldn't say that a heavy stubber should cost more than 12 points at the absolute most for a special weapon, and could probably be reasonable for 10. Why? Because it would be the only special weapon with a "heavy" designation. Any other weapon you can move and fire with varying degrees of effectiveness, but not a heavy stubber. So you'd be losing out on your special weapon entirely if one member of your squad so much as sneezes. However it could still be useful in completely stationary units, where you could pair it with a heavy bolter for good fire support. Getting 3 shots puts it in the same price category as the ever-sexy plasma gun, but with only strength 4 and AP 6, its not exactly devastating in its own right.
As for the Chimera, if I recall correctly when an open-topped transport gets hit with templates or blast weapons, can't that affect the transported models as well? And you have to bear in mind that open-topped makes the Chimera itself more likely to blow apart and take the squad inside with it. Not to mention losing the hull lasguns that could always fire as if stationary without endangering the people inside, and a loss of the amphibious rule. Perhaps it would be only -15 points (I based the suggestion off the cost of the Armored Crew Compartment), but I still think it would be more a drawback than a benefit.
Using the VDR (Vehicle Design Rules) you can have an AV of 9 but no less. This is to show it is a very lite vehicle and the possiabilty of hiting a gas tank or rubber tire or such. And opened topped viechles can only have 2 models fire from the hatch. The F.T. could have all 5 or 6 as edited by SOKHAR (who suggestion I liked) could fire. Its not as good as 6 standard lasguns on the Chimera but if the command squad were equiped with 4 plasma guns..... Well you can see where im going with this.Originally Posted by Catachan Devil
And to Sokhar I had mistakingly erased the points cost. Using the VDR I came up with 30 POINTS. which I think is pretty darn reasonable for what it does. I agree with your addition for the rules.
As far as another revision to the IG troop choices I think the current rules are great, but maybe they could give the standard Infantry the ability to take smaller squads. Like the Space Marines this way you could have more firing bases in 6 man squads. rather than having to take 10 men per squad. SHOOTY HELL. This way we could bring even more guns to the battle field.
Last edited by Commander NoOne; September 27th, 2005 at 18:06.
The guilty laugh while the innocent suffer.............WELL WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!!
How many models does a Salamander seat? It already fits much of the bill of the "open-topped" VDR fast transport NoOne proposes. I would think a new open-topped transport would have to accommodate 10 or 11 models to avoid redundancy with the Salamander and to be useful on the squad level. And there's no reason such a vehicle would have to sacrifice "amphibious." There are example of real-world open-topped transports that can ford water up to their gunwales.
I would think that a heavy stubber would be more expensive in a regular guard unit than in a conscripts unit. While the heavy stubber would be a big upgrade over other conscript options, it would be super devastating in a guard squad when paired with a heavy bolter. You'd be paying 15 points for an average of 1 hit per turn in a conscript squad vs. 10 points for an average of 1.5 hits per turn plus the option of a heavy bolter firing out of the same unit. It generally seems that weapons are more expensive when fielded in higher BS units or in units that allow higher concentrations of heavy weapons.
NoOne--Glad you liked my suggestions, I'd say that your vehicle would make a good addition to the codex. As far as smaller guard squads go, I think we're probably alright as is. Yes, marines can take 5 man squads, but those 5 men cost more points (75) than a full ten man guard squad (60 pts). It might be interesting to occasionally use the Cityfight rule about fire teams, where you can split squads in two (one with a special weapon, one with the heavy weapon), but we already have Remnants squads and Veterans. I don't see the guard utilizing under-strength squads in most cases anyway, so we're already way ahead of the marines in terms of bringing lots of guns (and bodies) to the field.
IGFeely--The Salamander is a Fast Attack tank, not a transport. So it can't seat anyone, hence the need for some sort of smaller, faster transport. Even the Salamander Command tank can't take on passengers, though it comes with Improved Comms. The sacrifice of amphibious is both because the Chimera is capable of fording deep rivers or lakes (or even acting like a troop ship for a beachhead assault) and to provide some balance or counterpoint to costing less points for that version. It can't be all upside, or else we'd never see the normal enclosed Chimera. I want a version that would only really be used for Mechanized units and the such, but is still practical and economical.
As for the suggested cost of heavy stubbers, well just look in your codex at the conscripts entry. All special and heavy weapon options for them are +50% the price for normal guard units. Not to mention that space marine heavy weapons are actually cheaper than guard ones. BS is not really the determining factor for cost in GW's equation, but weapon availability. Conscripts weapons are more expensive because its easier to get more of them. Same for basic guard versus space marines, or Tac Squads versus Devastators. It all depends on how many of them you can get, not how well you'll actually use them.