Rules Smackdown -- C:DH vs C:SM - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Rules Smackdown -- C:DH vs C:SM

    ---EDIT---
    Actually, this link: http://uk.games-workshop.com/apps/es...84&template=uk is a bit more useful.
    ---END EDIT---

    (Inspired by part of the discussion from the recent "Codex Revisions" thread.)

    There seems to be a general consensus that some of the rules in Codexpace Marines should be used in preference to similar rules in Codex: Daemonhunters. While I saw some unofficial support for this from a GW Employee on the GW Forums (see http://uk.games-workshop.com/apps/es...46&template=uk), does anybody know whether the use of such rules is OK in a tournament?

    I also want to have answered, for my own sanity, the following questions.

    (1) Is it OK to use the assault cannon statistics from CM in preference to the statistics presented in C: DH?

    (2) Is it OK to use the teleport homer rules from CM in preference to those in C: DH?

    (3) Should the cost for a teleport homer be 5 pts (CM) or 10 pts (C: DH)?

    (4) Is it OK to use the bionics rules from CM in preference to those in C: DH?

    (5) Should the cost for bionics be 5 pts (CM) or 10 pts (C: DH)?

    (6) Is it OK to use the storm shield rules from CM in preference to those in C: DH?

    (7) Do rhinos bought for Daemonhunters have the "Repair" special rule (seen in at least Codex:Witch Hunters; not sure if it's in CM), even though it isn't listed in the Daemonhunters codex?

    Last edited by number6; October 12th, 2005 at 21:57.

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    Senior Member JuliusGaiusCaesar's Avatar
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    i know that we use the assault cannon rules in the SM codex, but for the price in the DH codex. As for vehicles in both codices, remember, a grey knights vehicle is not the same as a sm vehicle, so i dont think our rhinos get that special ability.

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    Simple Green. Emp.'s Avatar
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    We do use the CM rules for both Land Raiders, I do know that, same with the Assault Cannon, the GW employees at GW confirmed it. We also do use the same rules for the teleport homer (6" rule now applies), but that's all I know, on the rest I'm not sure.
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    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emp.
    We do use the CM rules for both Land Raiders, I do know that, ... the GW employees at GW confirmed it.
    I didn't see that, exactly, in the web posts I was able to find. I mean, if we were to use the CM rules for LRs and LRCs, we'd also have the "Power of the Machine Spirit" upgrade built into both of them. And I don't think we do. I don't really mind that we pay 250 pts for a LR that isn't quite as good as the 250 pt SM LR, but I see no reason to spend 265 pts on a LRC unless we also get Power of the Machine Spirit, and I bet we don't.

    I'm pretty sure we can use the assault cannon stats as is, no points change. But I think our LRs/LRCs are otherwise as stated in C: DH, and at C: DH costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emp.
    We also do use the same rules for the teleport homer (6" rule now applies), but that's all I know, on the rest I'm not sure.
    This means to me that our teleport homers ought to cost 5 pts as well, instead of 10 pts, since they use the exact same rules. (Am I wrong here?) Which would be great! That's another weapon upgrade or IST in my force.... (I use two teleport homers in some army builds.)

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    I believe the consensus on these boards before, and on the GW forums, was that Codex: DH uses all the rules in codex: SM, but uses all codex: DH costs. After all, not everything that has the same rules is actually priced the same. For example, DH get a thunderhammer for 5 points less than SM.

    Thus, LR and LRC (and all other duplicate items, tp homers, etc) use all the SM rules (Power of the machine spirit, etc) but still retain the DH cost.

    LRCs, therefore, lose nice the hurricane bolter rules from the DH codex, but are slightly cheaper than the SM version.

  7. #6
    Senior Member JuliusGaiusCaesar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvang
    Thus, LR and LRC (and all other duplicate items, tp homers, etc) use all the SM rules (Power of the machine spirit, etc) but still retain the DH cost.

    LRCs, therefore, lose nice the hurricane bolter rules from the DH codex, but are slightly cheaper than the SM version.
    The thing is, DH dont use landraiders. They use Grey Knight Landraiders. However small the difference is, they are different vehicles i think, and thus dont use rules from the sm codex. The reason weapon stats are used from the sm codex is that the weapons in both codices are the exact same, but vehicle aren't.

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    We don't gain their upgrades (for vehicles) but whatever comes on the tank is what we get also (i.e.- extra armor for the LRC). So we can't upgrade to get the Power o' da' Machine Spirit (inner ork talking ) but if it comes on the tank, then we get it. All upgrades are out of our codex though and we use out point costs except we now pay the pt. cost of the SM LRC.
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    Neh. They've messed eveything up. Damn Space Marines.


    What bugs me is that and SM can 15 points for S 8 while we pay 25 pts for S 6. Powerfists. We have one price, they, like CSM, have sigle-wound/multi-wound prices.

    I do love the new AC and THomer. It's rather injust, however, that they pay less for something better on a lot of items. :ninja:


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    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustikarYuri
    Neh. They've messed eveything up. Damn Space Marines.
    :yes: !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by JustikarYuri
    I do love the new AC and THomer. It's rather injust, however, that they pay less for something better on a lot of items.
    HOW HARD IS IT FOR GW TO JUST UPDATE THE FAQ OR RELEASE AN ERRATA SHEET?!?!

    Sorry. Had to vent.
    Anyway, I think I'm on board here. (But correct me if I'm mistaken.) The consensus as I see it can be condensed down to two precepts:

    (1) Wherever there is a difference in the rules for an item that exists in both Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Daemonhunters, use the rules as printed in Codex: Space Marines instead of the rules in Codex: Daemonhunters. This means, for example, that Rhinos have the "Repair" special rule, assault cannons are Assault 4/Rending weapons, and that Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders come with "Power of the Machine Spirit".

    (2) However, we still pay the points cost listed in Codex: Daemonhunters for these revised items. This means, for example, that teleport homers and bionics cost 10 pts instead of 5 pts, and that Land Raider Crusaders cost 255 pts instead of 265 pts.

    Speaking of LRCs, there appears to be some disagreement as to how much we should be paying for them, despite consensus item (2).

    Quote Originally Posted by dvang
    Thus, LR and LRC (and all other duplicate items, tp homers, etc) use all the SM rules (Power of the machine spirit, etc) but still retain the DH cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emp.
    ... (I)f it comes on the tank, then we get it. All upgrades are out of our codex though and we use out point costs except we now pay the pt. cost of the SM LRC.
    Okaaaayy.... Umm. Only one of you can be right. Either we pay 265 pts for the LRC (C: SM) or we pay 255 pts for it (C: DH). Now, if we we pay the Space Marine cost for the LRC, then I think it indefensible that we continue to pay the Daemonhunter cost for teleport homers and bionics.

    I must admit that I have trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that we use the revised rules for stuff but not the revised costs. However, I care less about that than about consistency. If we pay Daemonhunters prices for items, than that should go for everything, no exceptions. Either that, or we pay Space Marine prices for all items that replace their counterparts in the Daemonhunters codex, no exceptions.

    HOW HARD IS IT FOR GW TO JUST UPDATE THE FAQ OR RELEASE AN ERRATA SHEET?!?!

    Sorry.

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    The thing is, DH dont use landraiders. They use Grey Knight Landraiders. However small the difference is, they are different vehicles i think, and thus dont use rules from the sm codex. The reason weapon stats are used from the sm codex is that the weapons in both codices are the exact same, but vehicle aren't.
    Let me direct you to the GW forums. mostly official (Pete Haines) 40k update rule clarifications thread stickied.

    > #1 - Should the rules for the Land Raider Crusader from the Space Marine codex replace the entry for the Grey Knight Land Raider Crusader from the Daemonhunter codex? Infernal Device on Chaos Land Raider - work the same?
    > Also for other codexes where landraiders are taken as transports (DH, WH and Chaos), do these idential vehicles count as scoring units as well?

    Yes

    > #2 - Should the rules for teleport homers from Space Marine codex replace the rules for teleport homers in all other codexes (i.e. Daemonhunters, Chaos)

    Yes


    So guess what. It specificially said we (DH) use the C: SM rules for LRCs. It then makes sense that LRs would be the same. TP homer rules are replaced as well, which also indicates that anything duplicate between the two codexes means that DH replace the RULES. The rules are replaced, but the costs remain the same.

    Thus, I stand by what I posted. DH use C: SM rules for LR, LRC, Teleport Homers, Force Weapons, Chainfists, Lightning Claws, Null Rods, Psychich Hoods (etc, etc. need I go on?) instead of what is in the DH codex, but pay the DH price listed.

    It is the same for WH. They use C: SM rules, but C: WH costs.

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