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  1. #1
    Senior Member Red Zinfandel's Avatar
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    Schaefer and the IG force Org

    Hello folks. First post.
    I used to play IG a little, (pre-doctrine codex).
    I bought the new IG codex, but I had already started playing WH, so I didn't get too far.

    Recently I was trying to help this desperate fellow assemble an IG list to beat his Necron Nemesis, who has been beating him consistently.

    So I took a look at Schaeffer in the codex.
    My god has that group changed from the old codex (where they were too diversified to be good at anything).

    BS4, deepstrike, special weapons, heavy weapons, demo-charges, small reorganizeable squads, and the ability to satisfy the min force org requirements.

    It looks to me like Schaeffer creates some very interesting possibilities if you use him to fullill your force org requirements. You could use your Schaeffer squads as dedicated Heavy Support shooters with all BS4. That frees you up to sink the rest of your points into creating a much more dynamic army with RoughRiders, Sentinels, perhaps some mobilized Ogryns, and even some DH or WH allies.

    Another idea is min/max the Schaeffer squads to once again fulfill the force org, but this time carry demo-charges and deep strike them. I realize that demo-charges are dicey, but a few lucky demo-charges can set a power army back so far, that it might not recover the whole game.

    Using Schaeffer to min/max the whole IG army & avoid the traditional platoons is unorthadox, and really goes against the grain of the whole IG philosophy.
    But it looks like goddamn fun & certainly worth a try!

    I was wondering if anyone has anything to say about it?


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  3. #2
    Back in action! Lord Yossanrion's Avatar
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    I'm certainly going to try it. It looks real fun, and real fluffy. Plus its not that hard to create a combination you like. Go for it man! ^_^

    ~Yossanrion
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  4. #3
    Eek
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    Ah i wish i shared your optimism. . .

    For instance, in units of more than a single last chancer, bar the affore mentioned lascannon team, they're totally crap. Way too many points and way too fragile.

    However, in single man units they have a role. Firstly the can deepstrike without needing the doctrine. So meltas, and demo charges can be worth it. Also, as single man specialists on the flanks of your line squads they could maybe make their points back, as the enemy unit either attacks your line squad, leaving specialist to engulf/melt/blast them, or they (less likely) attack the flamer/demo/plasma/melta guy leaving your line squad unscathed. A good distraction.

    But this is the kicker:

    Last Chancer
    Sniper Rifle, Frag and Krak Grenades.
    Infiltrate/Deepstrike
    Fearless (sorta)
    26 pts

    Last Chancer
    Power Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades
    Infiltrate/Deepstrike
    Fearless (sorta)
    21 pts

    Last Chancer
    Flamer, Frag and Krak Grenades.
    Infiltrate/Deepstrike
    Fearless (sorta)
    22 pts

    Last Chancer
    Plasma Gun, Frag and Krak Grenades
    Carapace Armour
    Infiltrate/Deepstrike
    Fearless (sorta)
    31 pts

    Last Chancer
    Demo Charge, Frag and Krak Grenades
    Infiltrate/Deepstrike
    Fearless (sorta)
    26 pts

    Now, is that worth it? Really? And on top of this insult, you have to take the Colonel and his totally ill equipped side kick, Kage. And the Colonel and Kage don't supply a 'leadership bubble' to your normal squads like regular command squads do.

    Interestingly enough, they can be deployed in squads of as little as a single man and still be eligable for a chimera. Quirky. But theres still a debate on whether or not chimeras are any good anyway leaving this idea completely in the realm of Quirk.

    I'd love to field a very characterful, unconventional guard force but it seems GW don't want me to be able to. Considering the SoB gruntete costs a single point more than an IG Stormtrooper (and way less than a last chancer), but gain power armour and a bolter, i could almost cry.

    Dispite the mantra's concerning IG as a very customisable force i don't agree. They're generally pretty standard. Guardsmen and tanks, maybe some guardsmen on horses. No heroes, no effective assault units, no jump packs, good heavy vehicles, crap light vehicles and um. . . no, that sums it up. If i'm wrong please educate me. I guess i should have realised earlier that theres no way to field an effective IG army without 100+ lasgun toting corpses to be. . . but alas.

    I started out playing Dark Eldar so i'm used to not having power armour and being 'hard hitting but fragile'. The transistion to guard seemed totally acceptable for me, until i realised that not only are the guard arguably less hard hitting (this will cause a ruckus), they're even more fragile and suffer from the worst initiative in the game. I don't know why there isn't some I4 dedicated 10 man assault squads. It's certainly within the realms of a human to being to be I4 (our commanders for instance) and on earth today theres alot of martial artists, weapon fighters and gymnasts that would defiantely translate into the 40k system with I4.

    So dismayed with the Guard list that i am looking to by the witch hunters codex just to see what the options are for the heretical forces. I don't want to have anything to do with chaos, my guys are revolutionary ex rogue trader mercenaries carving out their slice of a solar system on the fringes of imperial space, but as it stands with the IG i need rank after rank of expendable less than heroic meatshields for my splattering of decent weaponry. And as i'm using a mixed model range of cadians and glade guard (think fremen al la Dune) it's going to cost a fortune for me to field a 100 grunt force.

    Anyway, let the deabte continue i'm desperate for more options.

    DISCLAIMER: This isn't a hate thread. It's my personal opinion on the inflexibility of Guard with my personal themed force of mercenaries. If you like the Cadian 8th style guard force or a force that pays homage to a real world army then i'm sure you feel right at home with your Guard Codex. If you want a bunch of hard core, irregular, xenos friendly, heretical tech wielding die hards that can hold their own against most other forces, using a combination of generous firepower, special skills and raw guts then the Guard arent for you (or for me as it were).

    Having said that, no i don't want to play marines. God no. I want humans dammit. Effective humans. Male humans. Hollywood style heroes. Not real world style cannon fodder. Any suggestions on alternate rule sets would be appreciated. I've considered merely using the DE rules set and a gene seed theme (think Afriel Troopers) but I5 is a bit a much and ideally i'd prefer Imperial weaponry and vehicles over the unhumanesque DE options.

    Any ideas for me and the original poster?

    We seem to have the same sort of unconventional fluff driven views for our armies.
    Last edited by Eek; October 16th, 2005 at 06:08.

  5. #4
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    Having said that, no i don't want to play marines. God no. I want humans dammit. Effective humans. Male humans. Hollywood style heroes. Not real world style cannon fodder
    :lol: You should play Chatachans! :w00t:

    ~Yossanrion
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  6. #5
    Eek
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    I know you were really only taking the piss Yoss, but i have considered it.

    The things that suck about catachans are that their sentinels can only be the flamer variant. They can not have chimeras, let alone other tanks, they can't use the doctrinal system and out of the jungle, they suck.

    Their models mostly suck too, but i'm using a mixed range model base for my guys so that doesn't count.

    Still looking for an alternative rules set. Any ideas?
    Last edited by Eek; October 16th, 2005 at 07:01.

  7. #6
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    It looks to me like Schaeffer creates some very interesting possibilities if you use him to fullill your force org requirements.
    Remember that whether you use Schaeffer or not, you must still purchase a Command Platoon from the HQ section (note the "1" printed next to it. You can't have more or less, just the one required in ALL Imperial Guard armies).

    That said, the Last Chancers do have a lot of potential, especially if one takes the points to invest in several sub-units and equip them appropriately. For example, in a Drop Troop list you could make a sub unit with anywhere from 3-5 plasma guns and put some serious hurt on your opponent. Or you could have one decent-sized sub unit with Schaeffer, Kage, and others, and then 4 sub-units with only one individual and a demo-charge. Then these individuals can possibly land even between enemy units to light them up. Or have a large squad with several demo charges (though you're more likely to blow yourself up then). Lots of possibilities.
    "I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."
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    Eek, I gotta disagree with your analysis a little. I don't see how you can fault multi-model units as being way too fragile, and then recommend lone models as less fragile. But, on the lone model basis:

    Yeah, I agree the sniper rifle is too pricey, especially as it wastes the BS, but except for ratlings, guardsmen snipers are rarely a good bargain.

    Yeah, compared to vets, the plasma gunner is too expensive, even for BS4.

    Yeah, flamers and power weapons are too expensive, but with Guard's dreadful strength and mobility, these weapons are almost always bad choices.

    But the demo charges . . . Regardless of the fact that there's limited access to these in most list, four deep striking guys with demo charges for around 100 points is a tremendous bargain. I think I'd spend those 100 points against any opponent, any chance I could.

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    guard ARE NOT meant to be super human
    our best warriors our ogryns(abhumans )
    and our officers
    the entre basis of a guard army is meant to be shooting
    (you can take kroot if you want cc i guess you could always give humans kroot guns and use em as kroot...)
    officers are okay at cc but cant really hold there own vs the reall cc guys
    "My troops can eat their belts. But my tanks gotta have gas."
    General George S. Patton
    my armies
    "They have a gun called the death arc!They are now my favorite 40k race!"me quoting about the xenarch
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    http://www.bridesburg.net/anthonain_army/index.htm

  10. #9
    Senior Member Red Zinfandel's Avatar
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    Thanks to all for responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sokhar
    Remember that whether you use Schaeffer or not, you must still purchase a Command Platoon from the HQ section (note the "1" printed next to it. You can't have more or less, just the one required in ALL Imperial Guard armies).
    Good catach, but I have to disagree.
    I believe that "1" only applies when you are purchasing units from the Troop section.
    But if you have already satisfied the minimum Troops Force Org requirement, then you do not need to make a purchase from the Troops Section at all.
    I would need something else from the codex (other than the "1" you mentioned) to indicate that a command platoon is mandatory in addition to the minimum force org requirement.

    Eek:
    I'm not sure that you really understood my suggestion.
    I am not suggesting that Schaeffer's chancers be used to win the game for you.
    I am suggesting that they can be used to satisfy min force org requirements and double the # of points that you have available spend on "the good stuff" like Rough Riders, Sentinels, a second Basilisk, Ogryns, Slave Levys, or allies.

    The points that you do spend on the chancers need not be very high, but they can be spent in a way so as to deliever a reasonable return. A few deep-striking demo-charges at the cost of 120 points or so can easily hope to be cost-effective.

    You should also check out the Ab-Human doctrines. Especially Slave Levies.


    IGFreely:
    Why haven't you tried it yet?

    (I can't understand why I can't find anyone who has tried this yet. This is the third forum I've tried. I'm quite amazed).

  11. #10
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    Good catach, but I have to disagree.
    I believe that "1" only applies when you are purchasing units from the Troop section.
    But if you have already satisfied the minimum Troops Force Org requirement, then you do not need to make a purchase from the Troops Section at all.
    I would need something else from the codex (other than the "1" you mentioned) to indicate that a command platoon is mandatory in addition to the minimum force org requirement.
    The one is located next to the Command Platoon entry located in the HQ section. One component of the Command Platoon is a Command Squad--the entry for which you also use when buying an Infantry Platoon. However a Command Platoon is a unique unit, consisting of a Command Squad and other elements. A Command Squad is not unique, and is used by many entries in the Imperial Guard list. There's no number next to the Command Squad entry which indicates like you assumed that there's no set number. However the Command Platoon has a 1. All I can say to you is to actually look at the Codex and the way its laid out on the page, because it can't possibly be any simpler for you. I don't believe GW felt a need to clarify this any further since common sense and being able to read what's printed on a page is prerequisite for this hobby. I'm assuming you just didn't have your Codex in front of you and were a big hazy in your recollection, because its clear on the matter.

    (I can't understand why I can't find anyone who has tried this yet. This is the third forum I've tried. I'm quite amazed).
    Well one, half of your theory doesn't actually work according to the rules. Secondly, the stuff you're trying to avoid (HQ and Troops) provides the mainstay of the force itself, is extremely cost-efficient, and ensures that the "other stuff" you're so eager to get to doesn't run away at the drop of a hat. Its an interesting idea, but a Guard list with only a few Last Chancers, some Rough Riders, and Heavy Support pretty much sucks since its a shooting army that's not particularly good at shooting. The Troops section really is the strongest overall of any Guard category.
    Last edited by Sokhar; October 18th, 2005 at 02:17.
    "I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."
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    "Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."
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