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I've heared that guardsman shuldn't move much so they can fire their presius HWs. Why don't other armies w/ HWs like the SMs think the same? why do we see Smurfs moving around even when they can't fire their ML but the guard dare not to move?
Last edited by Lady Bastet; October 27th, 2005 at 02:07. Reason: Impotent or Important make up your mind!
That's usually because Our enemies have better "standard guns" than us Bolt guns, ork shootas, they're all much better than lasguns. So it's all good for them to move forward into rapidfire range, their guns may do some serious damage, ours won't.
Also Smurfs have a good armour save. We often place our guardsmen in cover to fire their Heavy Weapons and moving may take them out of that cover which will leave them relying upon their flak armour to keep them safe.
Smurfs can also have acces to powerfists and other such nasties in their tactical squads, our infantry squads can't. So sometimes it makes sense for them to leave off with the heavy bolter and run in to use a powerfist. Added to that the marines profile actually makes them decent in small numbers in CC, our statlines make us rely on numbers.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
This is the most important part of what you said, and I would like to expand on this idea for a moment. The reason that IG don't move very much is because we depend so heavily on our HW's to take down our enemies. Once our enemies have moved into a position where they can charge us on their next turn, then we are in some serious trouble.Smurfs can also have acces to powerfists and other such nasties in their tactical squads, our infantry squads can't. So sometimes it makes sense for them to leave off with the heavy bolter and run in to use a powerfist. Added to that the marines profile actually makes them decent in small numbers in CC, our statlines make us rely on numbers.
Not moving allows us to fire every turn that we can before they are on top of us.
Guardsmen do not have the higher stat line and wide options for close combat weapons that many other armies have. It takes having an officer to get a Power Fist in our army, which means that most armies will only have three power fists. There are a lot of SM armies with have the option of taking two powerfists per squad. That's a big big difference.
Even though we can take a few power weapons, they are not as effective since IG are only ST 3 and have a difficult time wounding SM's.
But a guardsman is only 6 pts while a marine is 15. Won't our numbers take down the enemy? I mean, come on, after 25 or 35 lasergun shots and perhaps a helpwith out spasial weapons won't be able to take that tactical squad down? and what if you manage to get into rapid fire ? that's 50 shots. won't the mass dic rolls help? can't the IG do w/ out their HWs?
if you went 55 models per infantry choice and positioned your troops so that at least 30 of them where able to fire on one squad of 10 marines, then yes, most likely out of sheer number you'll be able to wound 3 to 5 of them. Then again with one autocannon or heavy stubber your much more likely to wound a marine, even 2 of them from a much greater distacne mind you. Have an entire squad of heavy weapons and all of a sudden you're able to wipe out half a marine squad from 4 feet away rather then a foot.
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while the lasgun is nice en-masse
the problem is the probability of it all..
each lasgun has at best a 12% chance of killing a marine (2 shots at 6% each)
don't really feel like running all the math right now...
but the main point is, that armor save that most enemy's have, cuts your success rate notably... the heavy weapon gives not only range, but negation of that save...
added to a lack of armor on the IG side,
and unlike marines, they're not exactly designed to slog up thru enemy fire and plink off a couple shots before charging in...
IG are more, modern combat thant remnants from Fantasy Warhammer...
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This demonstration will use averages:Originally Posted by Comandos
Let's start off assuming that we have 20 Guardsmen. That's two full squads, and all of them have lasguns (low point game). Now let's assume that those 20 Guardsmen (at 120 points) are facing off against 8 Space Marines (120 points again). The Guardsmen shoot first. 1/2 of the shots hit. 1/3 of the hits wound. 1/3 of the wounds kill due to failed armor save. (1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1/18. Multiply that by the twenty shots, and you get a number just over one. One Space Marine down. The remaining seven Marines return fire (having moved to within 12 inches with every intention of beating the bajeezus out of the Guardsmen). 2/3 of the shots hit. 2/3 of the shots wound. No armor save is allowed (let's assume no one is in cover). (2/3)*(2/3)= 4/9. Multiply that by the 7 Space Marines and you get just over 3 Guardsmen killed.
Pointwise, this is a little off ( 15 points vs. 18 ). The squad of Guardsmen that took the hits will have to pass a morale check to stay put. Also, once the Space Marines bring the fight right to the Guardsmen (assault phase), the Guard become completely screwed.
This is why a Guard army needs its heavies. Tanks and heavy weapons allow the Guard to whittle down incoming forces to somewhat manageable levels. If the Guard move ANY part of a unit, that entire unit counts as moving, thus keeping the heavy in that squad from firing. Movement=assured death. Staying still=delayed death. Guardsmen still die at astonishing rates, no question there. However, the presence of a tank or a heavy weapon squad might encourage an enemy squad to take the long route around some terrain, thus hiding them and delaying their involvement in the battle.
Part of this is also a mentality bit. You have to get in the mind of a Guardsman (cheesy, but it helps me). If you have multi-limbed aliens, frenzied Orks, strange magics, and super-human warriors coming at you, what is the best solution? Throw something big and explosive at them. This means anything from heavy bolter rounds to Demolisher shells. The funny bit is that it often works quite well.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Last edited by Bibamus; October 27th, 2005 at 03:58.
Believe it or not we do actually move. :tongue:Originally Posted by Commandos
But more often it is not to get into rapidfire range, but to counter attack. As other people have already pointed out, we'd rather keep shooting our heavy weapons until the last moment, then as one squad absorbs the charge. The others squads will run in and swamp the enemy. A lot of space marine commanders have found out the hard way that running into a solid wall of guardsmen can really put mess up your day. :shifty:
If they wipe out the guardsmen on the charge, even better, we just have another round of shooting. It comes at this point that some people's armies will have something like a squad of rough riders to charge them with, mine doesn't and I'll be buggered if I ever need them. Numbers alone up close will keep me happy. Hmmm, that and a commissar with a powerfist, very handy indeed...
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
Im in agreeance with everything here as well. The reason we take so many HW is because the stock weapon of the guard sucks so damn badly, its s3 no armor pierce... There needs to be a heavy hitter, its like the support of the squad, and to top it off, being that we suck at close combat, best to smack the enemy from far so that when he does come through, and sometimes (Blood angel, ork, bezerkers) they will, theyll be in a somewhat manageable area... think of it as insurance.
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youve been legal pwned
The simple answer is that without heavy weapons, practically every unit on the table will outshoot Guardsmen on a point-for-point basis. Allow me to cite one of my all-time fave tables (scroll down about halfway):
Including heavy and special weapons will bring those kill-per-point figures closer to 1.