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Alright, I've been having some trouble with space marines...
I've fought about a half dozen battles against two different SM friends and lose every time. Granted I'm still fairly new, but so are they.
They usually field a couple tac squads, a couple assault squads, and a command squad. One usually runs two transports and a predator while the other just foot-slogs it and adds a dreadnaught.
Now, I can deal with the tac squads, the transports, the predator, and the dreadnaught, but I CANNOT seem to stop his assault squads.
Mortars and snipers won't kill them, and if they DO, they just make their leadership and press on, so I can't slow them. In addition they hide behind terrain and just jump from hiding spot to hiding spot until they can assault. By the time they get to me an assault squad starting 5 strong still has three guys, which is more than enough to slaughter a squad. Usually I place my stuff to close together, which will obviously play into losing troops as fast as I do, but I still feel that I need to stop them before they even get close.
I run 2 Platoons with 2 lascannons and 2 missile launchers, all with plasma guns... 3 sentinels (armageddon), a leman russ battle tank, and a hardened veteran squad.
I'm also experimenting with a rough-rider xeno-mount squad with the carapace doctrine, but I hate using all those doctrine slots on one squad. Granted six of them (vet sgt w/ honorifica imp) wiped out a 5-man assault squad in one charge, but they're not as reliable as I'd like them to be, seeing as they lose the lances after one charge.
At any rate, my main questions is what tactics and builds do you guys find most successful against the space marines?
Oh, and I'll be getting a basilisk soon, so obviously I'll be using that in the future.
Thanks for the help!
i play orks so close combat is a differnt issue. if your having problems with space marines assualt troops why dont you get the next closes thing to a space marine that a guard can field. try some storm troopers with plazma guns. they should be able to gun them down and if they dont gun them down they should be able to withstand an assult long enough for you to reposition your army so the combat doesnt flow into them:ninja: leaving the assult squad to be open to all your fire
I was actually thinking of that, but then I realized that if I took the hardened fighters doctrine (giving them +1 WS) it wouldn't apply to stormtroopers, so I'm thinking hardened veterans, even with the lower armour save, might be a better choice. If I use Close Order Drill and Hardened Fighters I'd have Guardsmen with WS, BS, and Init identical to a SM. If I give them a couple meltaguns and an honorifica imperialis on the vet sgt they might just be able to handle an assault squad, or at least live long enough for me to reposition.
So that takes care of the one assault squad... maybe... :rolleyes:
NO YOU FOOL!!
Don't counter asault marines with hardened fighters or COD. You'll get owned...repeatedly.
I recomend getting the Basilisk ASAP, as that is what I use to counter my friends marines.
It works wonders, and is very cheap. I recomend using the Leman and the Basilisk against
the assaukt squads while your Sentinels concentrate on armor. Your platoons and hardened Vets should ALL have plasma if your fighting marines.
Your 2 platoons seem ok. Missile Launchers and Lascannons should be able to handle anything SM can throw at you, but what's on your Command squads? What Doctrines are you using? I recomend this:
Doctrines-- Iron Discipline, Sharpshooters, Veterans...and whatever else you think is useful.
For your platoon command squads, I'd put-- JO with bolter and Iron Discipline, Heavy Bolter team, 2 grenade launchers, Sharpshooters. This will give you a good fire-base to support your platoons static squads. They'll also be ablt to regroup squads under 50%.
Don't be afraid to take heavy losses either. Just because you've lost an entire platoon doesn't mean the game is lost. While any of your squads are engaged in CC you should be moving the others into a better position. The last thing you want/need is your friend consolidating into squad after squad...I've been there, and can tell you it's not fun:yes:
While repositioning, put your Leman(If it's still around) into direct LOS of the CC, then as soon as it's over BOOM, eat that SMurfs...
This should get you back on track towards some victories...if not it should at least give you some ideas.
And for the love of jeebus, don't use hardened fighters, Die Hards or COD to counter CC based armies...it'll never work.
- massed ranks of troops (i.e. go pretty light on doctrines and equipment for characters) with special weapon (plasma in that case) and heavy weapon (HB or ML). The troops really are there to sponge up casualties
- leman russ. I don't like basilisks against assault armies, as its indirect fire is 36" min, and its armor is too weak for direct fire. The LR can dish AND take serious punishment. For safety's sake, take 2 of them!
- 1-2 good counter assault squads. Rough riders are perfect, or a tooled-up command squad.
Drop mortars and snipers, useless against marines (and frankly, against pretty much everything else. It looks cool, but is inefficient), stack up on plasma (esp. for shock troops or veterans and their BS4)
AND SHOOT THE HECK OUT OF THEM!!!
Concentrate your firepower on their fastest troops. Avoid CC whenever possible, make sure all lines of approach are covered by overlapping fire lanes.
The minimum range for a bassie may be a slight problem, but if the assault marines are hiding behind cover the whole way up field you should have something that can dish out Barrage shots.
Massed troops is a very good idea in any IG army. Take as many troops as possible and maybe change your heavy weapons to MLs and Autocannons. It's always good to have a multiple shot weapon when hitting only 50% of the time.
I'm not a fan of Sharp Shooters myself, but Gandhi has got some great pointers that you'd do well to listen to. Never try to outfight or even match Marines in hand to hand, it just makes Guard over-priced and under-effective. A great unit to add to your army and your list would be a Hardened Veteran Squad with 3 plasma guns and either a missile launcher or a lascannon. That squad alone might just gun down a 5-man Assault Squad without other assistance. Vets really are one of the most effective units the Guard can get, I'd rate them right up there with the basic Leman Russ. Only thing better than one of these units in your list would be two. :yes:
"I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."~Lord Yossanrion"Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."~Quick"Well thought, intelligently put, with a hint of sarcastic bastard!"~Diggum's Hammer
I can argue 2 cases where you could build a very effective anti-marine assault unit. For the purposes of this scenario, however I will only use one. Use rough riders my friend, don't buy them Xenos mounts or Carapace, just a bunch of cheap rough riders with lances and a veteran sereant rough rider with a PS. However, you need to play this unit right. When his assault squad comes sweeping down sacrifice a unit, let him assault you and even keep several squads near by just incase he wipes out the entire unit in once phase. THEN assault him with the rough riders. I play Blood Angels with lots of assault squads and I know this tactic will work.
Other things to keep in your arsenal (Some already stated):
-Heavy weapons squads with MLs
-Bassie (you might want to use 2 so that you can overlap their fire which decreases the problem of minimum range. This way you can ALWAYS hit his assault marines even when they are being sneaky gits and hiding behind cover).\
-Storm toopers with lots of plasma and a vet with a Power sword not only works as a great anti-marine firepower unit, but also as a decent close combat unit.
Also: The thing about assault marines is that they aren't as good as they are made up to be (Unless they have furious charge). They are good at staying alive in CC because of their tough armor. Once stuck in CC they really aren't that great so if you equip some of your officers with power swords or power fists (not always the best Idea but hey it works sometimes) you can really create an effective counter attack base.
Also2: Like some of the others said DO NOT specifically equip units for close combat (unless they are rough riders). because you will need a strong fire base, if you can create a list with a strong fire base AND a sprinkle of counter assault you will be set!
Just some thoughts and field tested tactics.
Great advice guys, thanks!
As far as doctrines go, I was thinking of taking the ones mentioned previously (Iron Discipline, Sharpshooters, Veterans) and Close Order Drill... and I was thinking of Hardened Fighters.
Don't slap me yet! :-)
I'm thinking that if I put the fighters doctrine on a few squads that my opponent will likely end up assaulting, i greatly increase the chances of them surviving... the SMs would be reduced to a 50% chance to hit, and my hits would land at the same time (due to the close order). I would have to mention this to the other player before the game, hoping to make him wary of close combat against me, possibly making him delay an assault and giving me more time to shoot. If I throw an Honorifica on a sergeant, the unit's leadership will be bolstered to a 10 with close order, making at least one unit a very real threat should they be charged, again with the hope of making the SM player delay an assault.
I'm not so much trying to make something that will stand up to him in close combat so much as trying to psych him out of assaulting by making my guys seem better than they are... we all know the eventuality of IG in close combat... I'm thinking along the same lines as an animal making itself seem more dangerous to dissuade a bigger predator.
What are your thoughts on this tactic?
Now I dont play guard but a fairly nasty tactic against marines is to use power weapons, if you can attach/upgrade the units (except sergeants) with power weapon weilding commissars and the like will turn a 5 man assault squad into swiss cheese-full of holes.
This may work it may not but it is an easy way of tipping the odds in your favour IMO, its risky but the guard aren't bred for brains are they?