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I think through sheer dumb luck I've stumbled on a interesting and rarely used combination of traits that has allowed me to do some interesting things...like make Uber Terminator Apothecary Sergeants of DOOM!:w00t:
Scons of Mars - Allows one wound models access to Terminator Armor at a cost of 15 points each.
Purity Above All - Allows Veteran and Tactical squad sergeants to become apothacaries at a cost of 25 points each.
If I have interpereted the rules correctly, this means that my Veteran and Tactical sergeants can slap a narthecum/reductor on and climb into a brand-new suit of Terminator Armor for a measly 40 points, leading the rest of their power-armored bretheren into battle. Now, I know the Terminator Armor comes unsupplied, so I'll have to buy the storm bolter and power fist for 20 points to make the sergeant comparable to a regular Terminator.
Now for my questions:
1. Is this even possible? I don't see a reason why not, all the rules I've seen say yes, but I may be missing something...
2. In order for Veteran or Tactical squad sergeants to have access to the armory, they first must take Terminator Honors, but the Terminator Armor entry in the Codex says that the wearer of the Armor automatically has the Honors at no extra points cost. Do I have to pay 15 points for the Honors first to let them have access to the 15 point Armor, paying twice for the Honors ? Or is it assumed that the sergeant get the Honors first when getting the Armor, paying only 15 points for both?
Why do all of this? Well, for one, I wanted to make my normal troop squad as tough and durable as I could, and this is what I've come up with. Some might say that the mixed armor of the squads will count against me, but I see it as a strength. In most cases, the normal bolter marines (meat marines) will have to be targeted first according to the rules, absorbing most of the firepower and drawing it away from my expensive sergeant. In turn, my sergeant outright ignores one of the wounds inflicted on his marines as long as they're in 6" of him.
I plan on using a rapid-fire plasma gun in the unit, who's Get Hot wound can also be saved by the apothacary's powers, keeping that model in play.
He also dual roles as a power-fisted sergeant, able to take on tanks and ICs without being singled out like ICs that lead troops. If a Vindicare assassin or other such models are able to pick out and snipe my sergeant, then there isnt a better set of armor to be in.
Anyways, if you can help me with the ruling or just comment on the tactics or the absurdity of the idea, please feel free to do so...
Thanks in advance...
If I interpereted the rules correctly you are allowed to do that but keep in mind that the sergeant will become very expensive and if you play against a more seasoned opponent he will likely just shoot with his ordanace that will not get you a save. and since you can only ignore a fail save your narthecum/reductor will be useless and the sergeant on his own very quickly thus a simple target.
DonÂ´t mess with the dicegod
IMO, you'd be better off just having more apothecaries than spending 45 points to put the apothecary you do have in Terminator armor.
Everything I have told you, even this, is a lie.
as i see it you would have to upgrade him to a sergeant by paying the 15 points first. This would be because you can't equip a normal marine with termy armour, thus you have to upgrade him, so he can get the armour.
thus you would have a hilariously expensive, and none too effective ordnance magnet.
if he was just an apothecary with a power fist (still quite expensive mind you) he would be just as effective as you can remove the models around him before him and he'll be less obvious
having said all this it could be a unique trait of your chapter...they value the apothecaries skills so highly that they are granted terminator armour so that they may better survive to administer their healing gubbins...
not everything has to make sense on the battlefield for it to be cool remember...good conversion opportunities too...
Never judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes...by that time they'll be a mile away, and have no shoes
Technically yes, this is legal. It wasnt in 3rd ed as the apothecaries equipment was listed in the armory and did not have a little T next to it, but that has changed.
Yes, you must first pay for terminator honours, and then pay for the terminator armor, then the apothecary upgrade, then the powerfist, then the storm bolter. These sergents would cost 85 points each. Do you really think they are worth the cost of an LST or Whirlwind?
Mentor of Space Marine Commanders far and wide.
Efficiency VS Point Cost VS Ease Of Use - Your best bets:
1) Chaplain led Assault squad - 2 plasma pistols, powerfisted sergeant
2) 8 man Devastator squad - 4 missile launchers
3) Land Speeder Tornado - HB + AC
Well.. he could be a inquisitorial storm trooper sergeant with a rosarius. As far as I'm aware, that's the only basic sergeant with a 4+ invulnerable. 5+ isn't bad though.Originally Posted by Son Of The Forge
Vindicares will still be the bane of this idea though.. true, one in every 3 shots bounces of the crux terminatus, but the other two will kill a 80+ point model. Statistically, if the vindicare can stay alive for 3 turns, he can make back his points.. that's almost unprecedented.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; December 7th, 2005 at 19:31.
Seriously, the points you have to pay for that does by no means pay back in survivability. Another note is that this squad cannot pursue fleeing enemies or use Rhino/Razorback transports. Also, when you are locked in close combat you waste the potential of your Nartheticum and when you are not in close combat you waste the potential of your Power fist. It's a loss-loss.
Get more men instead.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
This was just brought to my attention when I re-read the Scions of Mars entry. The last part states: "This does mean that one wound models can be given Terminator Armor". At first I had no idea what this was talking about, but now i think I have a clue. It doesn't mention anything about having access to the armory, just that the Terminator Armor can be given to single wound models. As far as I'm interrpreting this, it means that I can give ANY one wound model Terminator Armor without them first having access to the armory. They're not grabbing the Armor from the armory, so they don't need access to it; Scions of Mars is giving them access to the Armor.Originally Posted by Chaosbrynn
Alrighty, call me a lunatic, say that I'm reading the things that I want to read because its too good to be true, but I believe that Scions of Mars is more powerful than we first thought. It makes sence now, Scions of Mars has a purpose.
If I have to pay for the Honors in order to get the Armor (of which the Honors is already included for free) I'll have in essence pay for the Honors twice, making my new Termie 65 points (15 for the marine, 15 for the Honors, 15 for the reduced Armor, 15 for the powerfist, and 5 for the storm bolter), 25 more expensive than a regular Termie. Is that worth wasting a trait on? What about if it only cost you 50 points, 10 more than the original? (15 for the marine, 15 for the reduced Armor, the Honors are included with the Armor for free, 15 for the powerfist, and 5 for the storm bolter) Was it a little more reasonable? The power of Scions of Mars is that I can have a Terminator sergeant cost the same as a Veteran Sergeant in Power Armor. Would that be worth spending a trait on? I say, Yes.Not in the way I plan on using them. I realize the Apothacary is only useful in the enemy's shooting phase, ignoring wounds and casualties towrds morale checks. What I've seen is that most of my foes dread close combat with my marines, they're stats are just too high or just about even. Their whole goal in their shooting phase is to deny me as many marines in the assault as possible. I only loose about 1-2 marines per squad per turn and it takes me about 3-4 turns to footslog into assault range on average, what if I could deny them one shooting kill per squad per turn? Thats means I could foot-slog into an assault with 8-9 marines per squad instead of 5-6. Thats the power of the apothacary.Originally Posted by Viktor
Will my powerfist be wasted? My intent is to get my marines into combat as soon as possible, where the powerfist will do good, so it won't be wasted. I plan on the Apoth/Termie/Sergeant to have 9 meat marines around him, taking full advantage of the mixed armor rule, the most numerous armor has to be allocated a wound first, meaning him last, safe where he can start ignoring his living wall's wounds.True, is is very risky to put alot of points onto one model for this very reason. But, remember, the Apothacary can IGNORE one wound per turn on any model within 6 inches, including himself; he can protect himself from snipers. Of course, if the weapon used ignores armor or inflicts instant death, the apothacary can't heal that, then again nothing could. It's war, I'm bound to loose a few marines to powerful weapons, but at least with the Apoth/Termie/Sergeant I have as many options as possible to keep as many marines alive (including himself). If he prevents a model that would have died from taking a wound, he not only wins back the points of the would-be dead model, but also makes at least one of the enemy's shots that round totally ineffectual. I think he might just be able to win back his points.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
Thanks to all who've commented, and please feel free to rip this post apart as well, all comments are helpful and enjoyed!!!
Thanks in advance!!!
One wound models may be given terminator armour, yes, but no model may be given anything without access to the armoury. This means you'll have to buy terminator honours as well.
How cute, but if you drop two of these sergeants you could afford an entire new squad of marines. Could I perhaps recommend transports for getting them into close combat?
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
The wording might be wrong, but the point is the same, terminators may only hold items with a T, otherwise we'ed have plasma cannon wielding sgts running around, in terminator armour. As for the apothecary, the items arent listed in the armour, so i think they also wound not have access to both. In otherwords, dont try it in a tourney.