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This is from memory
His HQ had wings, so 12 in movement phase
6 weapon skill
6 iniative/5 attacks and a 7 strength on the charge (has furious assault).
He is a monsterous creature so ignores armor and has a weapon that ignores invulerable
And finally he has some war gear that prevents instant death.
After the battle he told me that he had maxed out the points at 215.
This one model slaughtered half my DH army including my GM w/retinue that had sacred incense AND grimore of true names, I also had a Thunderhammer Term in my retinue. He slaughtered my GM w/retinue without me causing a wound.
After the game we did some mock battles to see what could beat his Deamonprince. Again he beat my Grand Master w/retinue without taking a wound--even if he did his wargear would have prevented my force blade from killing him outright. He went on to destroy a dreadnought even though we let it fire first and charge.
We even maxed out a Nid CC carnifex at 240ish points which he slaughtered. Finally we made a hive tyrant that beat him. But as far as my DH army is concerned I don't see what can beat that model.
Sure I know I could pour shots into him from afar but that would require lascannon dread or Landraider which if I have in my force maybe should focus on other targets.
My one real option as I see it is a super shotty Inq Lord unit, but I'd like another option--I just don't see it. Help please.
I think that this deamon prince is illegal as according to all the stuff he's over his deamonic wargear limit.
Besides a GM still kills him with a forceweapon outricht, the deamonic rune only aplies to wounds that cause instant-kill.
Looks like he's illegal, just from what you're telling us. Here's a quick run down as to why -Can't have both of those things. The only things that give a 4+ invulnerable save are daemon weapons, as is the weapon that ignore invulnerable saves. Best he can claim is a 5+ invulnerable.Originally Posted by nedroj
Maybe you're thinking of Feel No Pain? That's not nearly as good as an Invulnerable save. And it requires you to be Khornate.
Now, the other things. Let's take a look at your list -
- Stuff on Prince -
Daemonic Flight (wings)
Daemonic Essence (only way to get 4 wounds)
Daemonic Resilience (only way to get six toughness)
Daemonic Rune (To prevent Instant Death)
Dread Axe (to ignore invulnerable saves)
That all together comes out to 150 points of Daemonic Gifts. We haven't yet included any Invulnerable save, which runs atleast 15 points. The 4+ version is only avaliable to two specific armies, and is much more expensive.
Now, what does this mean to you? That Daemon Prince is illegal. Lords are allowed to have only 100 points of Daemonic Gifts maximum. He's ATLEAST 50 points over that limit.
No wonder you can't beat it. Your friend is playing a totally illegal Daemon Prince. Might I suggest that your friend actually read his Codex and learn to play his army list legally?
He said he had 100 points of daemon gifts and 50 points of wargear. I'll have to borrow a chaos codex and check this out. Thanks, I was kinda depressed that he was so tough.
Oh, he's playing Chaos Undivided... I think. Its the one where his marines get to reroll leadership tests. Oh yeah I also remember his prince had something that reduced leadership--it didn't matter against my GKs but it did against my ISTs.
It was also annoying that as a monsterous creature he outnumbered my GM in combat so would cause an extra wound because he's fearless. Since ICs w/ rentinues are still treated as seperate units in CC as long as he didn't go base to base with my GM and a Term on his charge he could easily kill one or cause a wound winning combat and outnumbering even though the HQ as a whole isn't outnumbered. Arg, it was very sucky.
Last edited by nedroj; December 17th, 2005 at 22:23.
One thing we need to watch out for playing Grey Knights is that even our Grandmaster is not the best at CC, because he "suffers" from I5 . For Deamon Princes, Tooled up Libriarians, Chaplains etc, we get out initiatived, hense they get to hit us first. We must always be carefull to shoot certain things when we have to, instead of just charging in.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
He really sounds illegal, I mean, it sounds like he has everything possible. Which should be impossible.
But if it is legal maybe try inducting some guard with lascannons?
He's coming for you...
its almost certainly not legal. he's way over points on things. take a look:
there's a list of what counts as wargear and what counts as daemonic gifts. he's allowed 100 points of daemonic gifts
god specific daemonic gifts still count as daemonic gifts, as do daemon weapons, such as the dreadaxe which is the really really expensive weapon that ignores invulnerable saves, thats gotta take a chunk out of his daemonic gift points.
he's allowed to top this up to 150 points with wargear. standard weapons, eg. power swords, lightning claws/whatever don't count to this limit.
still, i'm pretty sure that the thing is illegal.
even so i think a grandmaster should still be able to take him. (sacrificing himself of course)
with sacred incense you're both initiative 5 as you're lowering his by one. you've got enough attacks to hit and wound and as has been said already daemonic rune definately does not stop force weapons from working, so you can kill him outright if you pass a psychic test after wounding him. if he fails his save he loses all remaining wounds
here's what i'd suggest:
"Anti son of a b*tch GM" 170 points:
GM, sacred incense, power weapon
(i swear i'm forgetting something) this GM isn't a whole lot of good against anything else. the power weapon is the cheapest ccw you can buy a terminator so its the cheapest way to get an extra attack. this guy has 5 attacks in cc, with a S6 force weapon. he's gonna die on the way but he's taking that DP with him.
edit: mastercraft the force weapon if you really want for a total of 185 points.
Last edited by TzarNikolai; December 18th, 2005 at 01:25.
The Collar of Khorne however does prevent death via forceweapon, which I bet is what he has...I think this guy might be legal, if he is right on the points and leaves off some things that seem pretty good. I don't have the Chaos codex but I would guess his 100 points in gifts are armor, stature, resiliance, flight, essence, and strength. again with no codex I would just guess that is about 80 points, maybe 90, which gives him the points for the dread axe, furious assault, collar of Khorne,and feel no pain (which can be mistaken for an invulnerable save). That would probably put him pretty close to maxed out, but could possibly leave him something for an invulnerable save I am not sure.Originally Posted by TzarNikolai
The best way to kill this guy is to shoot him with plasma or melta guns, unless you inducted a vindacator which can instant kill him because a strength 10 weapon will anihilate him as he doesn't have the uber expensive daemonic rune...(which I would certainly pay for if my grandmaster could get it, but not for anyone else [take a look at the spacemarines adamantium mantle, why do we not get that...])
Otherwise use normal Greyknights against him...use your terminators against units that don't have power weapons and you will dominate them...just don't get stuck against possesed, bloodletters, or any daemons for that matter...our terminators kill thier marines, and their terminators...our standard packs kill everything else they have...
With the Dread Axe and those Gifts, that's 115 points.Originally Posted by nichodemus10Another 40 points, including the required Mark., furious assault, collar of Khorne,and feel no pain (which can be mistaken for an invulnerable save). That would probably put him pretty close to maxed out, but could possibly leave him something for an invulnerable save I am not sure.
Even with the selections you mention, he's over by 15 points in Gifts and over by 5 points in total.
Why do the survivors remain anonymous -- as if cursed -- while the dead are revered? Why do we cling to what we lose while we ignore what we still hold?
Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives.
--Duiker, "Deadhouse Gates"
i don't get it.
why does GW go to all this effort of writing these rules then deliberetely goes around them in the very next codex? furthurmore why did so many of these exceptions start off in the chaos codex?
daemonic rune, collar of khorne, dreadaxe... they all circumnavigate a pretty important rule. yet they're all there.
furthurmore why is a chaos DP allowed to become so deadly that they can romp through entire armies with little effort on the part of the player?