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Something very disturbing happened to me today at a local A1 Comics. There were several people playing WH40k as it was a kind of game night and every1 was bustin out. I didnt go there to play just to watch but several of the players started talking about how DH were possibly the worst army in the game. They said such high points cost and limited manuverability made them so easy to kill it was unbeleivable. My point is are DH losing their rep? I dont know if we ever had one but ive pwned so many "overpowerd" armies that i could never conceive of my DH being anything less than the absolute best. This was a disturbing peice of new to me that such players could think so poorly of my favorite and most win heavy army(179/44/68 ) and not be struck down by god himself on the spot.
Any thoughts on this matter?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Itachi UchihaKonoha's Morning Mist and the trueSharingan sucessorItachi, we love you alwaysOfficial Shodaime Hokage of the CON 2 Boards
Very simple - these people are fools.
Every army is good. Every army can win if properly generalled. There are is no such thing as a 'bad' army.
Seems like these people probably saw a DH noob or two get bested. However in the hands of a vet they can be absolutely deadly. Ah well, sounds like in your area DH are becoming the new DE (themselves an absolutely deadly army in the right hands).
I myself know when I see a group of GK termies coming my way I know I have to kill them before assault or I'm in a world of hurt.
Last edited by Addoran; January 6th, 2006 at 05:55.
Oh nO! It happened over here too!
But this story has a happy ending. :w00t:
It started like 2 fridays ago, when my friend (plays speed freaks) said similar things to the store manager. (Plays all GK army)
so the next day the manager came back and whupped him.
Copied Avatar of JustikarYuri
Yes, similar here too. When I started collected DH 6 months ago, many people were going; why Deamonhunters? They did it in a tone that was kind of like "Why collect that loser hard to win army". One guy, the GW store manager even said: " Don't worry the models are really cool thought, your army will at least look good"
Now I have 2000+pts of DH, overall I', 10,2,1. My loss was to my son's very good Ultramarines army, but have beat him since. I have played the "Store Night" list (in Deamonhunter Army List section), at the GW store man time and not lost.
I don't want to sound like I am bragging, because after playing IG for so many years, Deamonhunters are a much more forgiving army than IG. That is why for me Grey Knights could never be the new Dark Elder. Deamonhunters don't have all the options and tools like Space Marines, but they certainly have one of the best Basic Troops in 40k, and with good tactics we can do very well. All 40k armies can win and lose, some ARE harder to win with on a regular basis vs all other armies, but to me Deamunhunters is not one of these.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
DH are difficult to master so I'm not surprised at this comment.Originally Posted by Kale De Veinsten
GW tries to make the sides as balanced as possible and given the complexity that can be extremely difficult. It's not uncommon you will see minor revisions in Codeces. That's partly why too entirely new Codeces come out every few years.
There are 2 main variables in determining winning. The scenario and the dice roll. Sadly, unless you both agree to the former you can't control either. It could be very likely that the scenario gives a significant tilt towards a particular playstyle which just happens to be the one you are up against.
This is probably one reason why many people pick marines. They are a jack of all trades and master of none. They have a lot of flexibility and have the armor to deal with some bad dice rolls. You rarely have to worry about them retreating off the table, doing poorly in cc or shooting, etc.
Remind them that one key trick in victory in 40K is to take advantage of your army's pluses while reducing the exploits of its weaknesses.
Some of the strengths to DH (Mainly GK) are the following (listed in priority [my opinion only])
- Each GK has a storm bolter standard
- You can load up on psycannons
- GK are great in close combat
Some weakness (again listed in priority):
- Expensive troops
- Very limited heavy weapons and armor choices
- Limited mobility
Basically, at the full range of a storm bolter, you can fire twice as many shots as most standard guns out there. That means you can outshoot most units, and with your shrouding and armor, you should inflict more casualties, even making up for your being outnumbered.
Psycannons are extremely effective. Stronger than a Heavy Bolter, ignores invulnerable saves, and is even an assault weapon. They aren't cheap, but when used in mass it adds to the ranged power of DH.
With the close combat option, it's kind of hard. One the one hand, once you get into cc you will do pretty well. Problem is getting there without losing too many troops in the process. One option is Deep striking but it might not happen where/when you want it. Then there is the LRC transport but that is very cost heavy. So it really takes some good maneuvering to take advantage of this.
The biggest minus of GK other than their cost is they have few vehicles (Land Raiders are the ONLY transport for GK), and few anti-armor anything. Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders are really the only effective way and they aren't cheap. To make up for this difficiency there are 2 options: One, be very careful in preserving what anti-armor you do have or two, get some allies. Sisters for example have a lot of anti-armor things. In fact, if you made Sisters your primary and GK your allies you would get more cost efficient armor and still keep most of your GK troops.
This surprises me, ive never had someone think the DH are weak, well most people i play against really suck except 3 guys who are older than me. Ive played somewhere around 50-60 games maybe lost 5-10 and tied a couple. 1 loss was against a Golden Daemon winner and the others were all too the guys older than me. Most of the kids there just say and i quote "Oh **** its him." This is mostly due to the callidus, no matter how many time i use him the people never bother to look up on the rules for Jump Back.
That's definitley different than my local hobby shop (Games Workshop). There, atleast half the people that go there (and many people go), jump on the band wagon when a new Marine army is out but nothing else. I'm the only pure Grey Knight player at the store, no one says they're crap or complains but nobody likes their price cost $$. Big bucks to buy a Grey Knight army I think especially since our $30 box comes with only 5 guys.
Here's the general breakdown of our store players:
DE - 2% (I gave him an extra point too)
DH - 2% (i gave myself an extra point )
WH - 6%
Other than BT Marines - 37%
Black Templar - 15% (staggering for one place since they just came out)
Eldar - 8% (me being one of them, but me being...again...the ONLY Biel-Tan player)
Ork - 5% (2 Speed Freaks, 1 horde)
Tyranid - 2% (like 1 player maybe 2)
Tau - 3% (2 players)
Necrons - 8% (4 players)
CSM - 12%
5th E Sand(Grey) Knights: 11-3 (retired) 5th E Eldar: 37-4 (retired) 5th E Wolves 5-0
Your saying no one plays Imperial Guard?!? What a shocker.Originally Posted by Emp.
But I never hear anyone complaining about Daemonhunters seeing that they are, as you said, so expensive and there are so few models aswell. To be honest, I believe the only reason someone would say that DH suck is because they slaughtered one player who probably was new.
Personally most of my friends fear my DH army
I have a few beefs with DH. When I say DH, I mean DH only, no allies or inducted troops.
-Lack of mobility
A. Grey Knights are the only army with a single Fast Attack option, and one that doesn't even move 12 inches! Every other army has a fast attack option capable of moving 12 inches.
B. Granted, you can deepstrike anywhere in any game, but then you're paying for nearly 300 points of dakka and krump that doesn't come into play, at best, till turn 2. Even then, you wont get into close combat till turn 3 (unless your enemy closes in with you, in which case he probably has a sacrificial mob or better cc). Coming down in a circle makes you a ripe target for armies with ordance. Defilers, Monoliths, Vindicators, Orks with looted vehicles, and many IG will be able to plop down a pie plate that will, even with scatter, put a big dent in your troops.
C. Your only other mobility comes from rhinos/chimeras (weak armor, and don't count as scoring units without their squad) and Land Raider/Crusaders (nice, but expensive, and taking too many can evoke cries of cheese).
-Lack of anti-armor
A. Your basic Grey Knight squads are gonna have a tough time against anything with av12 or more. They can do well enough against 12 or less, but anything bigger will be a pain. You'll have to rely on a single measley attack with a melta bomb. That is if you can get the charge on a vehicle.
B. Stormies with meltas are nice, but getting them in range is a problem. If they footslog, then the opponent can easily ignore them for a few turns. If they're in a vehicle then you have to deal with fairly weak armor.
C. Orbital Strikes have the strength, but not the reliabilty. They always scatter, are tied to a terrain piece, and have half strength if the hole isn't over a vehicle (even with the melta version that averages out to a measley 11).
D. Dreads and Landraiders have the most effective anti-tank, with the range and strength to take down many things. Bad part is they occupy the same slot on the FOC, meaning you can have at most 3 of them (which can easily run you 350+ points). Also, I feel they're too fragile and/or expensive.
-Lack of armor
A. Dreadnaughts: You shell out at least 110 points for armor value 12. In that situation your range is also limited. If you use at least one Lascannon/missle launcher dread, that's closer to 150. Dedicated anti-tank will have no trouble taking these boys down.
B. Land Raiders: No doubt among the toughest tanks, these behemonths may seem untouchable. But many armies can throw enough high strength dakka at them. Chaos/Smurfs have tank-hunter Havoc/Devastator squads, which means even their autocannons can at least glance. Dark/Eldar have the infamous bright lances. Guard can pack a mass of heavy weapons and/or tanks of their own. Necrons have gauss, Tau have railguns. Nids have gunfexes (granted only glancing), but also many rending creatures. A flying Tyrant can also tear into any vehicle. The only armies I'd be confident taking these against are Orks and Inquisition.
Orks' Rokkits and zzap guns are low range. Sisters' Exorcist has a 1/6 chance to damage after a hit. Seraphim have the same trouble unless they can get in 3" range or are decked out with meltas (in which case that's a juicy and fairly frail target).
C. I feel that both of the tanks are overpriced as well. Having 2 land raiders would be a lot better, but as mentioned earlier, that wont fly well with some players depending on your points for the game.
Granted, I play against Tau and Necron, but I feel that I could beat my GK using just about any other army. How do you deal with those issues? Are they not even issues for you? I don't feel inducted/allied troops is an answer, seeing as this army is DH army and if you need to induct an army, you might as well play that army and ally GK instead.
I think that one of the main things that daemonhunters suffer on is our inability to kill space marines, easily the most common army including variants. stuff with armour of 4+ we can mow through with shooty inquisitors armour of 5+ gets cut through like hot butter. the only units we can take that can get past 3+ are our heavy support choices, which really should be focused on taking out tanks, and storm troopers with plasma guns which unfortunately kill themselves so often its a joke (that may just be me though - i think the adeptus mechanicus has it in for me and supplied me with dodgy gear). adding imperial guard can help a bit, and if possible leman russes can help out a lot, but at present we do struggle a lot. i think the solution would be a heavy support choice of servitors able to take heavier weapons, or something similar. any thoughts?