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I'm having a ton of trouble winning against my roomies Black Templar army (in fact, I've yet to win - the best I've managed is a draw). My biggest problem is the Land Raider Crusader that has High Marshal Helbrecht, 10 initiates (regular space marines with BP+CCW) and 4 neophytes (scouts w/ BP+CCW). I can't reliably stop/destroy it with the Exorcists because of the high armor value. The hurricane bolters are fairly effective in keeping meltabombs away from it too. On the occasions when I do manage to stop it, I can't really deal with the 15 marines inside effectively. I can kill a bunch with some flamers, but my flamer squad dies in the next shooty/assaulty phase. In addition, he fields a venerable dreadnought (w/ tank hunter), and two 5 man marine squads with lascannons.
The only thing I can think of is to use two squads, one with meltas and the other with flamers to pop the LRC and burn the squad inside, but if I get a lil bit unlucky, I find myself with alot of dead Sisters.
Here's the list I've been fielding (1700pts)
Cannoness (Jump, IP, Evisc, Cloak of St.Asp)
9 Repentias + Mistress + Priest (Purity Seals, Power Weap)
9 Sisters (2 SB) + Vet Superior (PP, CC) mounted in a Rhino (Smoke, EA)
9 Sisters (2 Fl) + Vet Superior (PP, CC) mounted in a Rhino (Smoke, EA)
5 Seraphim (2 Fl) + Vet Superior (BP, PW)
4 Retributors (4 HvB) + Imagifer + Vet Superior (PP, CC) mounted in an Immolator (TL HvB, EA)
2 Exorcists (EA)
Since he's started including Helbrecht in the 15 man squad, I haven't found much use for the jumpy Canoness.
Here's what he normally fields:
Helbrecht, 10 initiates, 4 neophytes mounted in the LRC
2x 5 marines with lascannons (or sometimes one with a plasma cannon (which is terrifying to T3 models))
venerable tank hunter dreadnought with TL lascannons and missile launcher
5 termies, assault cannon, cyclone missile launcher
some assault marines (6-9)
land speeder and landspeeder typhoon
Anyhoo, I'm starting to get disheartened at losing so many times to this configuration. Hopefully, someone can point me in the right direction to getting more draws (or, gawd forbid, wins).
There's a battle report similar to this where the BT player got taken apart. The problem with your list is that you have too much tied up in cc characters and repentia. Sisters fighting in cc with BT is playing to their strength, not yours. You need to radically rework your list.
1. Drop St. Celestine and all the Repentia. They get shot up badly or just outclassed in cc.
2.Give the Canoness the blessed weapon and direct her onto those las/plas squads in conjunction with the Seraphim.
3. Add in more Seraphim and Battle Sisters. Expand the Seraphim squads. He has very few bodies on the field and many vehicles, make sure you outnumber him.
4. Get heavy flamers and flamers, they make a mess of marines in conjunction with DG. Drop the SB's, they're worthless against marines (this has been statistically proven). Drop the HB Immo, it's not effective v Marines (few shots and they can't be made to pierce the armour).
5. Shoot the Exo's not at his LRC, which they can't hurt, but at his Dread, Speeders, Termis and Assault Marines, which they can. Cut down that supporting fire and assault! Be sure to concentrate on one of these at a time to be sure you eliminate it. Use them in conjunction with the Retribs using DG to really slash to pieces his Assaults and Termis, which are above all their priority targets. Assault is much more dangerous to Sisters than shooting.
6. Concentrate not on that big LRC and cargo, but on all the supporting units. Use Jump Packs and Rhinos to avoid and obstruct it. It's just too big and tough. It will soak up damage while still dishing it out, allowing the rest of his army a free ride.
You have the basis of a good army, but it does need amendment if it to play optimally against an opponent like the BT's. Don't butt heads with this army, use mobility to avoid it and take it apart piecemeal.
There are other army lists that work against BT's, but they tend to be very different to your current list. You really just need too expand and better balance your force.
yes, i have a battle report very similar in the battle reports section.
but here's what to do...
Get your seraphim (with eviscerator and meltabombs) into cc with one of his forward or side deployed units. At the end of his turn hit and run towards the crusader. Then with the additional 12" move and 6" assault, you should be able to completely bypass his hurricane bolters and TLAC. and if you have enough room you can cover the access points so when you blow up his LRC, insta-killing all the occupoants.
(moving towards one of his units ahead/ont he flank of the LRC will fake him out thinking the seraphim are going after them which will catch him off guard with the "catapult".)
also, repentia will make paste of his dread so charge at it as he can kill a max of like 2 repentia a turn as you charge.
hope this helps.
2000pts Orks 4-2-1
@Caeti: You guys really like your special characters! I agree with a lot of the advice you've recieved but I'm going to give you some different feedback (some on your list and some on your tactics). Honestly, I think you can take him with a couple of changes.
1. At 1700pts, I would lose St Celestine (love the model!) and get a decked out Jump Canoness.
2. Lose the Repentia. Put them on your shelf and remember them fondly -- they should never be put on the table again.
3. Lose ALL of the transports. He's coming to you. You don't need them at all.
4. Each SoB squad should have 2 Meltaguns (no flamers and no stormbolters). Put a Bolter on the VSS.
5. If you have ISTs, you should have one or two squads (each with 2 Plasma Guns). If you don't, then add a 3rd squad of SoBs.
6. You need 10 Seraphim. Keep them out of sight until you pop the LRC. That unit plus the Canoness will tear up his command squad.
7. You need 3 Exorcists.
Exorcists can move and shoot their EMLs. Put them out of sight (in case your opponent gets the first turn). Move them 6" to get line of sight on the LRC. Move your Canoness/Seraphim out of sight where you can charge on your next turn (so ~18" away behind cover).
Since EMLs are AP1, each exorcist has a 38% chance of penetrating a LRC (and a 19% chance of destroying it). With 3 Exorcists, you have a 58% chance of destroying it on the first round. Not bad. (Even if you don't destroy it, you're likely to get a penetration. As soon as you score a penetration, the guys inside are forced to disembark.)
Once you destroy it, the guys inside are entangled. This means they are meat for the Seraphim. Use DG and your flamers (I recommend a Brazier on the VSS so you get 3 flamer templates). The flamers will take care of 7 Initiates. The TL Bolters will take care of a Neophyte. That leave Helbrect, 3 Initiates and 3 Neophytes to take a charge from a Canoness and 10 Seraphim.
Assault keeping your Canoness out of base to base with Helbrect. Using The Passion on your Canoness and Seraphim, you should wipe them out before they have a chance to attack back. Helbrect will survive with a wound or two left, but will die in the next round (with almost no casualties thanks to Spirit of the Martyr). If he doesn't, you will H&R and shoot him down.
mkerr makes some good points especialy the repentia (man they suck!) and personally i beleive no one should feild celestine ever as she's dead (specifically atomised) but thats me i like my games to follow fluff.
i like your list but i would drop the jumpack from the canoness as if you put her in the seraphim squad they lose there greatest str which is the hit and run rule. if you truly have trouble with the heavy vehicles then maybe consider a stripped down domminion squad keep it cheap and expendable that way it won't matter if in the following turn he turnsthem into mulch. apart from that with stuff like this it would be best to jus ignore it if you take down the rest of his army then it dosn't matter whats in the tank as there is no way he could win with a single squad.
"take my love, take my land, take me to where i cannot stand, i don't care i'm still free you can't take the sky from meee" ;- firefly
"i'm gonna grant you your greatest wish i'm gonna show you a world without sin" ;- serentiy
"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar" ;- serenity
No disrespect intended, but I don't see why this is such a striggle for you. Judging by your folly, I'm going to guess that you really don't understand Seraphim. All you need is more Seraphim with Str8 2D6 AP weapons. THe LR and LR then becomes a total liability.
In fact you shoudl have 2 Squads of Seraphim with 8 models each for greater sustainabilty.
Your Seraphim should also be divine guiding any flamers at Marines they can get their hands on, charge, jump back and let your battle sisters double tap their bolters with divine guidance. You might even put a flamer amongst your troops.
WHy 2 Exorcists? I bet they never pay for themselves. Drop one and redirect the points to Seraphim.
If you can find the points, take 1 squad of say 8 Grey KNights in case he gets in too close. Don't give any one else any CC weapons, except maybe a couple of jumping Eviscerators that can finish off the tank if the Inferno Pistol Whiffs.
You should be beating him consistently.
I just killed an entire BT army down to one last man.
I lost 1 squad.
I told him to never take a LR against me again.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm definately gonna put the Repentia on the shelf permanently (I love the models though *sniffle*) and Celestine will definately not be fielded at 1700 points. Between the two, I can get another 10 sisters in a rhino and a small dominion squad. My only problem with using the Seraphim to pop the LRC is that they then get caught by the 15 man squad that comes out of it - I doubt they'd survive a single CC turn. If I drive a rhino and an immolator up to it, I could use a melta gun in one squad to pop the LRC, and then use the other squad and immolator to put a ton of templates and faith on the squad that pops out (including Helbrecht). If I can't get that work, I think I'll do as mkerr suggests - lose the vehicles, and pick up some more seraphim and another exorcist.
gen.nehring, are 10 seraphim enough to cover all the access points on a land raider without breaking formation?
No No No Sir!Originally Posted by Caeti
You're going to Explode that vehile, and a third (or more) of them are going to die.
Or they might be entangled. PLus the Seraphim can jump back. They'll take some hits, but they'll definitely survive.
Definetly, especially with a good catapult. Just remember you have to be assaulting the nearest side so you have to surround it in the movement phase.Originally Posted by Caeti
But this is just a bonus, a cataoult on average will yield about 10" plus 18 more in your turn, assault w/ a S8 eviscerator = dead LRC and an entagled that is easy meat next turn
2000pts Orks 4-2-1
Wow, I've never heard that statement. Ever. My exorcists always pay for themselves. If I could take more, I would.Originally Posted by Red Zinfandel