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Well at first I had decided to play strictly Deathworld Veterans with Kroot Mercenary allies indigenous to the planet where these Deathworlders are from. But then I read in despair that the Deathworld Veterans list cant take ANY sort of vehicle whatsoever.. not even a chimera.
Now I know when your entire army infiltrates to varying degrees or start off the game hidden/in hard cover vehicles arent a priority, especially in jungle terrain. But GW got one giant glaring thing wrong here..
..not ALL deathworlds are full of vast jungles!! Just Catachan & others like it, but there are just as many that are toxic wastelands, freezing polar planets, planets where the nearest sun light only shines for a few hours each day, volcanic mountanous planets full of caves and rocky debris, etc. On plenty such worlds troop transport and even so much as a fighting tank could have its obvious uses.
Because of this, im playing the regular Imperial Guard list with the doctrines of light infantry & jungle fighting, and the rest i've yet to choose because i dont have a codex at the moment. Very possibly that one "weapon warriors" or something that helps you somehow in close combat? Lol.. which brings me to my question.
Do you think Imperial Guard can make a decent hand to hand "detachment" or platoon, not entire force, that is competant and good in close combat against at least half of the other race's conscripts and low caste fighters? What Im thinking about is two Chimeras loaded with 2 squads equipped for hand to hand combat and influenced by the best doctrines. Accompanying these brave 18 young men will be three Catachan-issue Sentinels, with the Heavy Flamer & "Chainsaw addition", giving it an extra attack in close combat, which makes 2 WS4 STR5 attacks from the senintel -- not great but not too terrible i suppose. I figure the chimeras and sentinels will all go down 1 flank, or all down the center if forced, all acting on the same targets in coordination. Up close im having the feeling that 3 heavy flamers would really help those poor Deathworlders out fighting / about to fight for their lives. The Sentinels could also enter a combat, if it's a good idea at the time. What do you think about this as a close combat platoon if you will? Will it work or will i get my ass handed to me repeatedly? I plan on using the options for the Veterans of bringing plasma guns or melta guns if im facing someone with lots of armor. If the combat is an obvious loss, I could roast them & the enemy up alike with the heavy flamers, lol. Hey, they're piloted by Commissar cronies.
Just so you know, the rest of the army (1500pts total for the entire army) would consist of a 2nd platoon outfitted for more ranged combat (again, just 2 squads, minimum for platoon) with plasma guns and maybe even a heavy weapon. This will be my Human Deathworld force, mostly indiginous Humans from this particular Deathworld, but led by a small elite force of Imperial Guard from a neighboring Deathworld which has already been claimed for the Imperium. Kroot Also inhabit this world, and have been warring with the human tribes and their own tribes since the dawn of their creation, whoever came first. The reason for Imperial interest in this Deathworld is the fact that the Tau already have a base colony in place on the other side of the planet & have befriended tribe upon tribe of Kroot for labor & combat against rebelious tribes. One of the Shaper's from the tribal inner council refused to join the Tau and defected with 1/3rd of the Kroot tribes on the planet. Since then, they've found themselves alongside Human warriors frequently, even learning basic ways to communicate from race to race. They do have a lust for organism flesh, but they're kept under control by the Shapers, not to mention they have to kill their opponent in combat before partaking on their flesh, for that is very taboo in this kroot society.
Anyways, thats how Deathworld vets under Imprial Guard rules with Kroot allies will work out, some fluff (hey I wanted to brainstorm my story into a better one) on how this unlikely pair joined up as allies on this dreaded, near-toxic volanic world, and a couple of requests for your opinions on the close combat platoon. thx for reading my long ass post.
Kroot have a lot of bonus' for fighting in jungle....i would know. *shudders* so might want to think about why jungle loving kroot are on a volcanic ash world? ou could make it half and half. kinda like hawaii, jungle at the bottum and volcanos up above, that'd be kinda neat actually. but thats all, good idea so far.
and if u really want to do damage up close, just give drop troops to a SW squad with 3 Demo-packs:shifty:
"In the battle of Trechamov VII they became ghosts. They're strength was already steel." - The Regiment of Death , author unknown.
You could do it, it'd be all nice and fluffy but it would play like crap. Jungle Fighters even with doctrines are still worth bugger all in a hand to hand fight. If you want a fast, effective assault team, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to look at either rough riders or Xeno steeds.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
I agree that guardsmen are impossible to outfit for close combat. We just don't have the base stat's. But rough riders are AMAZING shock troops. Maybe you could work into your fluff how the natives learned to train xeno-beasties for war-steeds?Originally Posted by Triumph Of Man
Also, I think maybe you're just thinking the wrong direction with your cc-specialists. I think that rather than *increase* their cost for measly benefits, the key with the guard is to *lower* their price by getting conscripts! They are amazing. I think there's a thread or two on them already you could check out. Generally, I find that 1 less WS, when you're on the lower end of the spectrum like us, doesn't even penalize you. Against Orks or Space Marines, conscripts hit on the same roll as normal guardsmen... :wacko:
Tyranids: 2500 pts
Imperial Guard: 1000 pts
Witch Hunters: 1000 pts
Just to repeat, line squads will never pull their weight in CC. You can sink all the points you like into doctrines and it will just make them more expensive losers. Except against Tau, in which case a marginal CC win will turn into a less marginal CC win.
Your best bets for CC are:
SWS with flamers and a demo charge (I think you're only allowed one per squad, no?)
A Last Chancer with a demo charge (the "crazy Ivan")
Huge mobs of conscripts with CoD
Counterassault flamer squads behind the conscripts, out of consolidate range
Sentinels as speedbumps
The Catachan list
In my opinon, close order drill is the single most effective CC booster for guard, but there's no way, fluffwise, you can justify deathworld troops having it. They're supposed to be crazy, undisciplined psychos, after all.
Tanks on deathworlds? Hmm.. I get what you're saying, but, think about how useful tanks would really be on any of the worlds you've suggested.
Jungles - obvious
Swamps - Chimera is amphibious, but that isn't going to stop it getting bogged down in any cloying sludge.
Toxic Wastes - As the above, except the sludge also eats through the hull in minutes.
Polar Planets - Fuel freezes in the engine, tracks sieze up every few minutes.. Tanks in extreme cold generally don't work very well. Also, one of the hallmarks of a deathworld is dangerous wildlife.. is a polar planet going to have much wildlife at all? Therefore, there's a question of whether polar planets would actually be deathworlds.
Dark planets - These are not neccesarily deathworlds, and troops raised from them are best represented by the 'nightsiders' abhuman doctrine.
Radioactive Wastes - This is the one where I can see your point. However, troops who come from such worlds generally aren't much like catachans anyway. They're either mutants, or crazed fantatics like the death korps.
To properly equipe a Guard squad for CC, you need:
Close Order Drill:
Now your Guardsman Cost 10pts each instead of 6. An Ork Slugga Boy is 9pts and is T4 and has one more attack.
You can do it for fluff, but not to win.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
Well, I agree that tanks would be in trouble here too, but as for dangerous lifeforms....Its possible. Typically hostile lifeforms in a 'polar' style enviroment are much rarer, but they also tend to be larger.
Think Polar Bears, Wooly Rhinoceri, Giant Mammoth's, Sabre Tooth Tigers, giant hairy boars maybe, killer whales coming up from under the ice, that Yeti type thing from 'Empire Strikes Back'.
Here's a quote from some site I found about animals around in the last ice age in North America at least.
'There are mammoths being killed by massive lions and sabertooth cats. Bison are almost as big as elephants. Beavers are as big as bears, the short faced bear stands more than 5 foot at the shoulder, almost twice the size of a grizzly bear. These big animals merit their name - mega-fauna.'
Beavers as big as bears! Heh.
To make it a 'death world' you just add poison, spikes and higher human hating intelligence to everything. . Maybe some acid for blood or fire breathing. Whee.
Typical ice-deathworlder bull****ting other troops.
'Huh. Call this cold? This is nothing like as bad as home. I remember when old Tarick went out for a stroll and never came back. We thought the mega beavers had caught him, eaten him and used his bones to line their nests. Turns out he saw the Xasit instead. When spring came, which was about eight of your years later we found where he had been when his screams thawed out enough to be heard. Never found the body of course.'
"No one has a monopoly on wisdom."-S.W.G.
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No they're not, you're thinking of regiments like the mordant headhunters or something. Catachan for one are well disciplined, amongst them selves that is. You need to earn their respect in otherways than fear (which is why commisars get hurt), which is probably why their officers fight can join their infantry squads. Rember each community is very close knit, probably a lot of them are related, so you could have Close Oder Drill to represent their mateship and them sticking together to protect each others backs and flanks.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
There's a picture in the Catachan codex of a squad of men standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting genestealers. IMO they're using COD.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
Then why isn't it listed in their recommended doctrines.Originally Posted by Triumph Of Man
The ability to stand in a line and shoot does not qualify CoD, in my opinion. CoD represents a special level of regimental focus on fixed formation tactics and precision drilling.
You tell a catachan to practice his close order drill, and you're probably going to get an answer like 'Listen 'Sir', I've been hunting devil grubs since I was five.. I don't need to be told how to stand in no line and ponce around like a fool.'
Don't confuse rules and fluff.. I know CoD is great, noone needs to tell me that. My question is, is it fluffy? Put aside the alterior motive that you probably want to use it, and ask yourself whether a regiment raised on a jungle world, which maintains discipline through charismatic leadership, is going to spend hours and hours drilling so that, in battle, they can march around in perfect unison.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; January 28th, 2006 at 04:15.