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I'm going to play against BA soon but I don't know anything about them or atleast not so much. Can you guys tell me what the strenghts and weaknesses are of the BA. I don't want to hear what I should buy but what tactics I should use. I play BT might this help.
thanks in advance.
DonĀ“t mess with the dicegod
I play BA as my primary army.
BA players go with 2 approaches. 1 is an all-out assault based army, taking advantages of their chapter-specific abilities (such as furious charge on the whole army and black rage, which gives a 1 in 6 chance of fleet of foot per unit per turn, including most vehicles).
another approach (which I prefer) is to go with a combined-arms army that takes advantage of basic SM abilities and the chapter-specific abilities of BA.
What's common with both is this: Speed
BA are a freaking fast army. You'll usually see multiple jump pack equipped squads, a scout squad or two, and mobile troop choices.
This gives the BA player the ability in most cases to pick where they want to attack, usually a flank. Additionally, if things get bad, the army can fade, regroup, and try again.
So first I would use the approach that destroys their speed first. Focus on transports and jump squads.
Second, don't let them get the charge. if they charge, they get the furious charge bonus. Otherwise, they fight like non-trait codex marines in cc. Keep an assault squad in reserve and hit their lines with an assault prior to them hitting yours.
third, how to deal with their death company. These are marines with 2 attacks in their stat line. They are usually jump infantry and are attached to a chaplain or a sanguinary high priest (chaplain with apothecary abilities, basically). In both cases, they get to re-roll attacks on the charge. nasty enough with 4 attacks on the charge per model.
Death company also get 'feel no pain'. This is the ability where, if they fail an armor save, they get another 4+ save. if they pass that, they're okay. So if they take star cannon fire, they still get a 4+ save. to kill these guys, you just need to get around their armor save and their feel no pain save. Feel no pain does not work under these circumstances: instakill weapons, power weapons, rending weapons if used in CC. ranged rending weapons still give them a 4+ save.
When i play against BA, I go after transports first. And whatever instakill ranged weapons I have usually get directed against the DC, to bring it down to a manageable number. if you get hit with a chappy and 4 or 5 DC, it's not insurmountable. if you get hit wit ha chappy and 9 or 12 of these guys, you're gonna have a problem.
Overall in 4th edition, Ba have a bit of a problem. even though we pay an extra 100 + (can't say exact number) points for the Dc retinue of 4 - 6 models, and can sometimes loose models from our squads, which count as casualties for the purpose of being a scoring unit, our death company assault marines are underpriced. basically, for an average roll of 5 DC, we would end up paying the same amount as 5 assault marines.
So overall, for any list, BA are fielding the equivalent of a FEW more points than our opponents. this is advantageous in smaller games, not so much in larger games. And it's something we have to deal with until the next BA FAQ or codex release.
Death company can take PW or PF if the unit the player who looses a model from a squad decides to take the veteran sergeant and bring it into the DC. I generally don't do this because I go combined arms and like having a PF in my squads. Sometimes I will, but it is rare and really depends on whom I'm playing.
Anyhow, the real place to kill DC is in CC. they go down fast the power weapons. So swamp them with cheap units and watch them wither and die. they're powerful and slightly unbalanced, but no so much so that a BA player can win the game simply by having a DC. I suggest a chaplain leading an assault squad to take down the DC. focus on the dc and ignorre the chaplain. if you want to take the down the chaplain at the same time, assault the chaplain only with a tactical or scout squad that has a PF. You can instakill him quick. If Dc are iwthout their chaplain or sanguinary high priest, they're kinda like khorne berserkers that blood rage. every turn the Dc will have to more toward the nearest enemy. so you can lead these guys around with a rhino and have them do nothing for the rest of the game once theiir chappy's dead.
I mentioned a sanguinary high priest at the start of my post. In 3rd eidtion, it was the only character in the game that had 'litany of hate'. Now all chappies do. Nice thing. But the SHP's litany of hate, which is actually called, 'chosen of sanguinius', has a 6" radius. it will affect other models in other squads on that squad's charge. So if you see this guy, he's potentially worse than a chaplain and easier to take down. ask your opponent if he has one and kill it fast.
BA got nerfed quite a bit in 4th edition b/c so many BA-chapter specific abilities can be emulated with traits and skills now. The rhino rush is gone, so you don't need ot worry about marines charging out of rhinos after moving 12", then another 6" due to over-charged engines, disembarking 2", moving 6", and then assaulting 6". I still use rhinos fairly extensively b/c I like tactical squads in close.
On the down side, each squad, including vehicles, has to roll for the black rage at the start of each BA turn. on a roll of 1, we 'rage'. Meaning we get a D6" move for the unit. this move must be toward the enemy, not toward the nearest enemy. Additionally, when we rage, we can't fire heavy weapons. So a BA dev squad is basically useless if we rage. This might also help you to understand why we build our armies the way we do. I take 1 or 2 dev squads in my lists starting at 1200 points, but I put a PF on a VS in the squad, so if I rage, I can either re-position or lend a supporting assault if needed. Anyhow, this is the trade off for having furious charge on the army. it is a disadvantage, but not one that completely mitigates the furious charge benefit. We should be paying an extra point per marine across the board for balance purposes. Anyhow, if you can force the BA player to sit and shoot for a few turns, you might be able to take advantage of this. In any case, it is a slight advantage for you.
Hope this helps. Let us know how it goes.
Last edited by OverchargeThis!; February 19th, 2006 at 16:40.
Certain units in a BA army are combate monsters ( death company ) all units benefit from furious charge wich makes them formidable in their own rights. As a BT player you will find yourselves rushing into eachothers lines. I dont have the new BT so I dont know much about your available units. Almost no BA player has devestator squads and almost every one has at least one dread for the mobile fire power and at least one tank armed with a lascannon. So you are going to want to get the charge and be able to take out any armoured units that he might have. You are also going to want to have a lot of plasma to fry any incomming assault squad. Now about the death company they are hard to hit hard to wound have power armour and benefit from the ignore injury rule. So the squad that is sent to crack this nut is either going to have a huge number of powerweapon attacks or a couple powerfists in the squad. Hope that helps
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Since BA kinda suck at shooting, well, go for shooting. What you need are MLs, LCs and plasma stuff. Against BA is one of the few cases where a 4xplasma cannon dev squad is justified. Just blast away at their assault squads and watch them die. For the cc-monster DC, hit it with MLs and LCs before u hit it with ur own assault unit(s). Try not to let them get the charge - they can probably kill a whole squad of marines in 1 turn of CC if they do.
So it´s a great tactic if you position my assault marines in the middle and fly just out of range of the DC and then charge it with PW when his squad is of the size 5-6 man.
DC and then especially when he has a SHP.
tanks and transports
jump infantery and scouts
thanks for your the replies expecially OverchargeThis! your post is great.
DonĀ“t mess with the dicegod
I would say transports first. You want to avoid squads of rapid firing tactical marines as much as possible.
Once you pop those, then go after the dc.
regardless of DC size, charge them before they charge you. Chappy attached to an assault squad is probably best. PW in teh assault squad. Lightning claws on the chappy. Plasma in the squad.
You can easily drop a good amount of DC with that set up. chappy will probably get 6 hits and 5 - 6 wounds, especially if the assault squad he's attached to has furious charge. The VS with a PW will prbably get 3 hits and 2 wounds on the charge. Assuming 7 - 8 wounds, that's probably enough damage to blunt the dc and render them relatively ineffective. the Plasma pistols might drop 1 on the way in to the assault. Any instakill weapons might have nailed a few prior to your charge.
See, they're tough, but they're really not that bad if you know how to get around their armor save and feel no pain. I've seen alot of players just go into a panic when they see the guys in black armor. I can only guess they aren't aware of the unit's abilities. Sun Tzu said if you know the enemy as you know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a 1000 battles. if you know yourself and not hte enemy, you'll win 1/2 the time (paraphrasing here....). If you know neither yourself nor the enemy, you will always loose. I guess these guys just don't know their enemy. You do. =) So let us know how badly you kicked BA @zz. LOL
As far as the SHP goes, he would be attached to an assault squad, most likely, and would try to do to you precisely what your chappy/assault squad setup can do to him. if he's smart, he'll set things up so a nearby squads gets to charge at the same time, getting the re-roll bonus.
An easy way to take down any T4 character is my favorite tactical squad tactic. I look for this when my troops lend supporting assaults. My squad will assault a character. Doesn't matter if it's a GK Grand Master or a BA Sanguinary High Priest. Put a power fist on your tactical squad. Move into CC with the character only. On your go, you get 4 attacks. usually 2 hits. Usually 2 wounds. 1 will usually make it past the opponent's iron halo or equivalent. Instakill. this is a nasty way to make assaults end quickly, and I do this all the time. My Raven Guard buddy figured this out, after many games, finally, and now likes to do this to me. He dropped my chaplain with a veteran scout sergeant's power fist in a game yesterday. LOL.
Last edited by OverchargeThis!; February 21st, 2006 at 12:05.