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Ok, great, got your attention.
This thread is dedicated to the 'issues' people have with the almighty GK hero, the Grandmaster.
As a starting point i am slightly annoyed at his huge points cost. With a master crafted weapon and the icon of the just my GM comes to a hefty 185 points. OUCH!
Now i know people will say that this is offset by the benefit of his extraordinarily good NFW with both it's power weapon and force weapon bonuses.
However, this is, in turn, offset by (in my opinion) his less then astounding number of attacks and the fact that he cannot carry a pistol of any kind (the codex forbids it for models in terminator armour) and i am unsure whether he can carry a second hand weapon. Now lets think a bit, without terminator armour the GM would have 3 attacks on profile, the same as a space marine chaplain etc. Personally i was affronted by this as the GK are so much better then space marines (no offence to SM players as history wise, and game wise the GK are designed to be better in some roles) and should have at least 4 attacks on their profile.
Another note of slight annoyance ( I am sorry but i'm going to drag the space marines into it again!) is the dismal lack of special characters the daemonhunters possess compared to the 4-6 the SM's have). I know that history wise the heroic deeds of the daemonhunters are not public knowledge but you would think that there would be some veteran GK Grandmaster reknowned amongst the GK ranks as a tank in his own right. All we currently have is an annoyingly common brother captain special character. We need a GM hero/special guy.
Well i have ranted and raved long enough, please feel free to post your own complaints or feel free to ( POLITELY) disagree with my views.
I dont much mind the points cost of the Grand Master, but he should have another attack. The special chars would be nice, but I think GW needs to focus more on balancing the game as a whole before diving into extras like that.
Last edited by Falamin; February 21st, 2006 at 01:58.
The Grand master is a hard unit, and name any other charector that you would want to fo mano e daemon with the blood thirster--how about a souped up DP?--maybe a carnifex that can go toe to toe with a C'tan?
You can't give this guy five base attacks...he already is one of the most deadly asault models around. If you want him to kill lots of guys take holocost, otherwise drop the Icon, and grab a chain fist; it will only cost you 5 more points, and you will own vehichles, dreadnoughts and multi wound units with toughness 4 or less if you need to(not recomended). The only problem I have with the guy is that he can't take a familar to get his initiative up, he has psychic powers, and should be given the honor.
I can sympathise with a lot of your points, but the trouble is that it would be a really bad idea to swamp the game with units which can kill abseloutely anything. If a GM had 5 attacks, he'd be abseloutely monstrous.. almost any unit in the game would be within his power level. By giving him 3 attacks, GW have limited him to a more clearly defined role. Elite units, sure, especially if he has a retinue.. ICs and Monstrous Creatures, most certainly.. Making him a beast against swarms as well means that some opponents will have almost no way to take him down, which is unfair.
The holocaust thing is a great idea if you want him to kill swarms too, but it will never make him an all purpose unit. That's not what he's supposed to be, and I don't think it's what GW intended him to be.
The trouble with special characters is that, if I'm correct, there is only one Grand Master at any one time within the Grey Knights Chapter. This means that, when you take one to the field, you're already bringing in the most elite, awesome dude in the chapter at the time. I'll agree, one extra special character might not go amiss, perhaps representing a particularly famous GK commander from ages past, but 4 or 5? Also, you can't exactly change their role much.. So it would get pretty boring. You'd have Grand Master Bob, who killed lots of daemons, and was very good at it. Grand Master Dave, who liked killing daemons, and was very good at it.. and so on.
Lets not forget Grand Master Fred, who liked cricket, and was very good at it AND killing daemons.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
As to more special characters, you kinda have to look to Armies other than SM for the norm. Most other armies have only two special characters per codex, you have to keep in mind that SM's are an exception rather than the rule. Don't get me wrong, I really like the fluff that GW backs up the special characters with but from a game perspective look at the special characters that most armies have, they're utter crap. They're always loaded down with useless extras and typically cost way too much for what they can do. Asking GW to make more is like saying "Hey, I don't think my codex contains enough useless crap, could you add on a page or two more?"
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
Most of the newer codexes, and even some of the older ones have more than two special Chars. Eldar, space marines, Guard, and chaos all have more than 2 special Chars. not trying to start an argument, just commenting.
If you're complaining about attacks, give your GM a power weapon instead of MC! Then he has 5 attacks (base).
5th E Sand(Grey) Knights: 11-3 (retired) 5th E Eldar: 37-4 (retired) 5th E Wolves 5-0
Or MC his NFW, too! Expensive, yes, but, rather awesome.Originally Posted by Emp.
On the subject of expense, many DH units/items seem to be at least slightly overpriced. I feel like point costs for much of the army needs rethinking. GMs and BCs both seem more pricey than they should be. Psycannons aren't the beasts that the revised autocannons are, yet they cost about the same. 10 points for a teleport homer?
Strange costs, in combination with the various rules conflicts -- that have resulted in more than one intense discussion here on LO, even -- make it appear that the DH codex is, if not broken, at least strained.
Not that I feel like playing a different 40K army....
Last edited by number6; February 20th, 2006 at 22:24.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
Let's compare the GK GM to the SM Librarian (Epistolary)...
Same statline, except for Attacks and armor (see below)
Terminator Honors & Armor (hence the +1 A and terminator armor)
All the nifty GK special rules (Shrouding, Aegis, Deep Strike, Rites)
Comes with psychic power (Storm of Emp's Wrath)
Ok, let's even out the playing field and give the Epistolary some terminator armor and storm bolter, while giving the GM a psychic hood.
Now, the GM has +2 S (NFW) and the GK rules. Epistolary has a psychic power.
GM costs 165
Epistolary costs 145
Seems pretty fair to me. +20 points only, for +2 to S in CC as well as all the nifty GK rules. Sure, it's a pretty good chunk of change, but he will destroy all but the most hardcore enemies in CC, and those he can't kill first, he's likely to at least kill simultaneously.
The thing I *HATE* is that the GK Hero B-C has the same statline as a regular Elite terminator squad leader. Why can't he at least get 2 wounds or I5 or something to make him different, other than he can get himself a psychic power (of which DH have mostly lame powers).
As far as increasing your GM's attacks... there are 2 things you can do:
1) Replace his storm bolter with a power weapon/thunderhammer/daemonhammer/chainfist. Give him Scourging for some ranged shooting. Voila 4+1 for 2 CCW = 5.
2) Give him articifer/power armor and a refractor/icon. He then can use True Grit (since hes now a GK in power armor). Voila 4+1 for 2 CCW (true Grit) = 5.
Option 2 (articifer+refractor) is just as expensive if compared to the minimum of option 1 (power wpn+scourging), gaining 6" range with the SB and doesn't require a psychic test to shoot, but loses the random shots as well as AP4. OF course, you also lose 1 Attack on the charge with Option 2 (you get the Charge bonus, not true grit bonus on the charge).
Option 1 is generally better, allowing your GM to take Thunderhammer/Daemonhammer/Chainfist in order to also be a threat to vehicles, as well as big bad guys.
Last edited by dvang; February 21st, 2006 at 02:38.
you mean the librarian? chaplains arent Psykers.