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Hardened Vets cost you 9 pts per BS4 Model in a 5 Man squad or 8.5/10man.
Last Chancers run you 16 points per BS4 Model Specialist if you dont take into account the cost for Schafer and Kage.
A BS 3 Grunt Costs you 6 points giving a difference of 3 points for HV and 10 for LC.
BS3 Hits 50% of the time while BS4 hits 66% of the time hit 33% more often.
The question, is hiting 33% more often with 3 points? 10 points?
Edit: I might be a little off in points because I don't have my codex here with me atm. Also take into account that HV can take an additional 2 weapon upgrades and a last chancer unit could take as many as they are willing to pay.
Last edited by TooMad; February 23rd, 2006 at 15:13.
For the hardened veterans you have to take into account for the fact that you are paying three points for +1 BS, +1 Ld., the ability to infiltrate, and the ability to take three special weapons in the squad.
Similarly with the Last Chancers, the additional points that it costs you to use them factor in the ability to upgrade a number of people to have specialist kits and all the other goodies that go into using last chancers.
I personally haven't studied the last chancers enough to tell you if I think they're worth the points increase, but I will say that the hardened veteran upgrade is worth it. If I recall correctly, the HV's used to cost slightly more in the older codex than in the new one.
My 40K Armies:
- Thousand Sons
- Mordian Imperial Guard
- Dark Eldar
My Fantasy Armies:
- Lhamian Vampire Counts
Neferata got it. Veterans are a great deal at their points because of the infiltrate and higher concentration of heavy/special weapons.
If you were looking at nothing but numbers to compare wounds on the table and hits generated per point, you'd think that Conscripts are the most efficient unit IG has. They generate the same number of hits per point as Guardsmen and provide 33% more wounds. However, their crummy access to specials and heavies make them of limited use. So, compared to Conscripts, Guardsmen are overcosted, but they have access to necessary weapons. Compared to Guardsmen, Vets are overcosted, but they have access to a higher concentration of heavy/special fire.
As far as Hardened vets are concerned i would agree entirely with Neferata. In my opinion, a mere 8 points per model (plus the mandatory vet sarge) is well worth it for these little chapies who arent just BS4, but also get infiltrate and a leadership increase along with the ability to take 3 spec weps and a heavy and just to top it all the sergeant can have officer only items....... I choose the veterans doctrine every time.
First off, vets are 8pts, can infiltrate, and have +1ld. This is for only +2 points more than troopers? They are an awesome deal.
The main reason why vets rock my face off is because you can give them 3 special weapons. The more expensive weapons you give them, the more you take advantage of their BS4. Give a 10 man vet squad 3x plasmas and a missile launcher or lascannon and you will have a LOT of high strength, low ap goodness that will threaten everything from tanks and canifexes to vanilla marines. Just be sure to put them in some cover because they will be high on the opponent's target list.
Yes, the +2 points are definitely worth +1bs among other things. Vets are probably the best, most flexible unit in the IG codex.
Also their sergeant can take power weapons and powerfists!
vets and stormtroopers are worth it! they can rip the crap out of anything with a great deal of success
do you think that giving the sgts powerfists are worth it though?
"Crescit in adversis virtus" (Virtue is Born in Hardship)
"Cheese is the cry of the weak"
You are; Empire (truly)
You are 63% Honorable, 47% Bloodthirsty, 37% Magic-minded, and 85% tactically-oriented!
No, in a word.Originally Posted by CowboyAdam512
Veterans Doctrine is my second fav, after Grenadiers! Three BS 4 Lascannons with Plasmas offering support for BS4 Plasma Guns in Chimeras.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Do Veteran Sargeants even have access to such things? I thought that was an "Officer Only" item. Either way, I wouldn't give them Power Fists, striking last when you have crap Toughness, Weapon Skill and Strength is just asking to have those swet sweet victory points taken from you like a candy from a child...Originally Posted by CowboyAdam512
I agree with Ghandi and Diggums, powerfists are not worth it for a vet sarge. Power weapon? Yes. Powerfist? No. Vet squads are really the most cost-effective infantry unit in the IG codex.
Now, I must reference up to the very very first post in this thread. You said "The question, is hiting 33% more often with 3 points? 10 points?" Well, I think you got a little confused on your percentages there as the BS 3 hits 50% and the BS 4 hits 66% for a total of 16% more often. It is still worth it though. I love Imperial Guard and can't wait until their turn comes around (I am doing a series of 500pt armies). And when they do, you can be sure I will try to put a HV squad in even though it will probably not work out... :shifty:
Shields of the Emperor SMs (in the making)
Nurgle IG AC/Grenadiers
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