Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
There are many schools of thought on this and I was wondering how each player addresses this issue and their reasons.
Many players believe that lascannons (and their anti-tank role) are best left to the Tactical Squads and gear their Devistators towards the anti-personnel role.
The rationale behind this is simple - lascannons are cheaper for Tactical Squads and you rarely need more than one lascannon shot to disable a tank. Likewise, a mass of heavy bolters are far more effective against infantry than just one and heavy bolters are cheaper for Devistator Squads.
On the other side of the coin there is this school of thought:
More often than not, it takes two or more shots to disable the most dangerous tanks. Why commit two to three tactical Squads (and up to 30 Marines) to shooting at a unit that only three have a chance of harming? A Devistator Squad can commit four shots towards that tank with only 1-6 Marines "watching".
A heavy bolter is an excellent weapon in a Tactical Squad as it complements the mass of bolters that it is supporting very well.
Of course there is the middle ground:
Missile launchers can handle anything - use them.
While the four-missile-launcher Devistator Squad is obviously the most "efficient" choice - it can get a little boring.
So my questions for everyone are these:
Other than the missile launcher, how would you distribute your heavy weapons?
What mix of weapons would you use in your Devistator Squads? Tactical Squads?
Disclaimer: I don't mean in any way to "put down" the missile launcher. I just like to make people think "outside the box" once in a while - its good for the mind.
Last edited by bannus; February 24th, 2006 at 02:28. Reason: Spelling
Well, if i was a chaos player, id select auto cannons + tank hunters. Thus, they are slightly cheaper then the 4 man missile launcher squad, with twice as many 8 strenth shots against tanks.
With marines If i was not going to vary the use of which dev weapons i take, i would use honour your wargear, and select 6 dev squads.
My core force would be the standard 3 ML squad, id give them all infiltrate.
Then for my elites, id use 1 lascannon team, 4 lascannons, all with tank hunters.
A plasma team - 4 plasma cannons give them infiltrate.
And a squad for 4 heavy bolters.
All the above squads have 4 body guards and 4 heavy weapons.
Two tac squads with lascannon and plasma guns, and a very inexpensive HQ. Depending on the point limit, but id probably need a minium of 1850 to do this list.
Id have a nice HQ + unit at 2000.
Space marines dont offer much veritey other then using the above optoin.
However, there are other optoins that many players over look-
Using veteran as fire support can be quiet effective.
Select tank hunters, and purchase a cheap lascannon, then through in a plasma gun.
Youve got a squad with great anti tank at 24 inch range, with 1 strenth 10 shot, and 1 strenth 8 shot.
The same effect can be used with a trait, but there are much better traits out there...
With the trait cleanse and purify + a drop pod, you tactical squads can take on an extreamily dynamic anti tank role. This being, dropping withen 1" of the enemy tank with 2 melta guns, average scatterig roll is 7" with 2 inch deployment you still withen half range of the tank.
Then arm the sgt with a powerfist, and this squad is an extreamly rare point effective daul role unit. Effective in assault and shooting, with waisting much potential, as melta guns are assault weapons.
Dreadnought can also fill that needed anti tank roll, while landspeeders make the best anti infantry unit that space marines have.
I think there are simply better ways of acheive the diesered effect you might have been looking for, through your dev squads.
Actually, I'm not looking for alternatives. Just seeing how people distribute their heavy weapons.
I guess to put it simpler:
When it comes to heavy weapons, do you gear your Tac Squads for anti-tank and your Devs for AP - or the other way around? (again, barring the all-purpose missile launcher).
I would use my tactical squads for Anti tank in that case, i guess. And not use a dev squad.
My tactical squads would be drop podding, so this still doesnt really answer your question.
If your looking for something fun and new, that rare, but perhaps not the most effect try something like this:
10 man squad 4 Multi meltas, infiltrate. You need traits but thats not that bigga deal.
The nice thing about this squad is if your opponent does use mass skimmers IE: Eldar, Dark edlar, or Tau, you can rally mess up there tanks with this unit.
The nice thing about the squad is you place it last, and hopefully in cover with line of sight to the tank you want to die. They then make a desent fire base after that.
General rules for dev squad creation is this:
Dont mix weapons which have different roles
Dont mix weapons with different ranges.
Basically, heavy bolters can be mixed with plasma cannons, but youd be best off with all plasmsa cannons or all heavy bolters, this is because heavy bolters and effective against swarms while plasma cannons are best against eilite units with good armour saves.
Again you could try mixing lascannons with MLs, but these weapons have slightly different roles, similar but different. They are both the same range, and are desent anti tank, but you probably woudnlt want to waste a lascannon shot into infantry, unless its a termintator, and then the ML does work very well.
IN short is best not to mix weapon types.
The combo most tactical squads is 8 dudes, effectivly, each haevy weapon has 2 wounds.
It will also take dead marines for this squad to go under 50%. And your getting the most number of heavy weapons, for a very effective number of body gaurds.
Alteratively, 6 man squads are also ok, not as good, but still point effective.
Well id recommend plasma/lascannon in your tactical squads, with plasma guns. Heavy bolters dont work that well. And the profile of a space marine is such that all he needs is the holy bolter to deal with must oponents. Peace
Can you do this? The phrasing on HYW is that all dev squads taken as elites must take a skill... but it never says that dev squads taken as heavy support can take a skill. If you grab a second trait it's perfectly doable, but I've never really been able to read HYW in a way that lets heavy support squads to take a skill.Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar
I go with lascannons in my tac squads and heavy bolters in dev squads. Occasionally, I take multimeltas instead of lascannons.
Well everyone knows my opinion but there are 2 rules that everyone should follow when building dev squads:
Rule #1: 1 bolter marine for every heavy weapon. This keeps your expensive heavy weapons safe for long enough to wreak some havoc. Even under heavy fire.
There are exceptions. For instance, if your dev squads can infiltrate to get a cover save, then you can drop a marine or 2 as the cover save will keep some of them safe.
Rule #2: Always use weapons of the same range! This keeps you from having weapons just sitting there doing nothing. Also, this keeps the weapon purpose somewhat in line. The 48" weapons, missile launchers and lascannons are both high strength and so are good at dealing with vehicles. They also have a low AP and so can deal well with MEQ units. The 36" range weapons, hevy bolters and plasma cannons both work well on infantry. Multi Meltas should never be used in devastator squads. They have far to low a range to really be useful. No one is dumb enough to move a tank within 12" of a multi melta, so unless the multi-melta can move and fire, its pretty useless.
As long as you follow those rules, your dev squads will be fine. But, as everyone knows, the most cost efficiant variant, is 4 missile launchers.
Mentor of Space Marine Commanders far and wide.
Efficiency VS Point Cost VS Ease Of Use - Your best bets:
1) Chaplain led Assault squad - 2 plasma pistols, powerfisted sergeant
2) 8 man Devastator squad - 4 missile launchers
3) Land Speeder Tornado - HB + AC
Originally Posted by Bob Dole
You are correct, the non-elite Devastator squads do not get to take a skill with HYW.
As for my load out, I've got three 8-man Tactical squads, each with a Lascannon, Plasmagun, and Vet Sergeant with PF. This load out is just as good whether I intend to approach the battle offensively (trying to come to grips with IG, or Tau) or defensively (against Orks, Nids, possibly Chaos). Once I get within 12" (usually by drop pod if offensive), then I can happily stand still and rapid fire, and can use my lascannon if I need to. If there isn't a vehicle or monstrous creature around, then I can still count on the lascannon to make one enemy model very dead. The plasmagun, of course, is effective against all but the heaviest armored vehicles.
I'll typically use one Devastator squad, with 8 troops, 4 Missile Launcher and 4 Bolter. This load is effective against all classes of enemy vehicles, and I can use frag grenades when defending against approaching troops. If I expect that an enemy hoard army won't bring very much heavy armor against me, then I would feel comfortable in leaving out this squad and bringing my second Devastator squad. I would do this vs. Orks, for example, which typically won't have much AV13 or 14 assets.
The second squad, also 8 troops, has 4 Heavy Bolters. These are effective against everything in the game short of AV12+.
Supplementing either of these Dev squads and Tac squads with a Dreadnought (TLLC or Assault Cannon), and a Predator (any variety) in Heavy Support, and a few Land Speeder Tornados in Fast Attack, and your marine force should have a fair chance against anything you have to face. You'll have more than enough anti-tank, and anti-troop to get the job done.
Anything else you might chose to do (using traits, fully-loaded characters, etc.) are just icing on the cake.
in my Long Fangs (devastaor squad), i take 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters, i play Wolves, special skill as long as the seargant is still alive is you can split the shots into two targets, so i can have my LC go for armour, and my HB go for infantry.
for my normal squads i dont really take heavy weapons, i prefer to go with ssult based weapons, i.e. flamer, plasma gun etc
In my reading of the rule, if you take a squad as an elite, you must give it tank hunters, or intilrate, if you take it as a standard heavy support choice, then you can do as you like. However, some of you might disgree with that, the rule is writen ambigiously, to solve that problem simply take see but dont be seen, and flesh over steal. Problem solved.