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I would like to dedicate this thread to ideas that are not the usual I've-done-the-maths-so-I-know this-works ideas for both list building and general tactics. Nowadays it seems that if you post an army list you are basically gonna get the same answers, min-max your las-plas squads, get more LST's, get a chappie/libby for your assault squad, always field a 4 m.launcher squad, get rid of those rhinos etc etc.
These lists are good for what they do, they're actually very effecient but how fun is it when every army looks the same? IMHO it has almost gone a little to far with this, it almost seems like an army list forum isn't needed but only one post that say what I said above. (Again we are all fully aware of how effective these lists are so please don't bring that into the discussion). What I would like to see in the army list forum is more advice on how to use the posted list and changes that keeps the feel of that said list instead of the standardized answers mentioned above.
In my opinion a list should always include at least one unit that is there because you like the way it looks/it's cool/you like the fluff.. By having a list with at least one unit like that I think you will have more fun and also get more for your money because you wont get bored with your list as fast, wich will lead to you buying more models to add spice or in the extreme case quiting the hobby just because it got boring.
Anyway, with this thread I would like you to tell us about any unusual units/upgrades/combos that you use and how it works for you. My thinking is that just because it isn't streamlined to the max doesn't mean it won't work. Maybe if we get enough ideas this could turn into a tactica or an article.
OT: Btw english isn't my native language so please ignore, or even better correct any spelling/grammar mistakes I make.
Last edited by thomory; March 9th, 2006 at 11:43.
Good thinking mate. I am victim to some of these thoughts, I have the Chappie, I have a las/plas squad. But I also have a scout squad with a veteran sergeant (who hasn't died since his promotion!) with power sword, and a missile launcher. The rest of the 8 man squad has CCW BP.
I know, not the most efficient setup, but I like to spoil my opponents plans with a cheaper squad that infiltrates and is hard to ignore...
Beware the Agapanthers!
Codex Astartes: More a guideline than a rule...
I like to field a cc scout squad with a heavy weapon too. If against armies that will charge me I place them on the side of the board on cover. When the enemy comes charging against me I stand still and rapid-fire into the nearest squad. Then he has to chose if he wants to go for my scouts (2 attacks per scout, I 10 for cover) giving the rest of my army a break. Or ignore them, which means I can charge him in the back..
My sons of Medusa have pretty much none of the features you are describing, and yet seem to rape most armies, list looks like:
Captain or chappy, either case, power weapon, BP, frags, termie honours, some sort of inv save (goes with squad 1)
Dread, TL las, DCCW, storm bolter, extra armour
1 8 marines, flamer, vet sgt w power fist, frags
2 6 marines, missile launcher, vet sgt, power weapon, razorback, tl las, xArmour, smoke
3 6 marines, missile launcher, vet sgt, power weapon, razorback, tl las, xArmour, smoke
6 marines, 2-4 Plasma cannon
I can add more marines, a scout sniper squad and a whirlwind to this, but the core is as above
Anti tank comes from the Razors, supported by the 2 ML squads if needs be, either way these 2 squads give fire support, the dread does too although it may also advance
the dev squad gives anti troop fire and teh HQ and squad 1 work their way forwards or act as counter assault
Everything you have been told is a lie!
I like your list, this is what I mean, non-standard units/upgrades/combos that actually work (or are just plain fun). Btw how many points is that? Do you put your tac squads in your RB's? How do you do to not have your foot-slogging squad get shot into pieces before they can assault? Also, fielding a 6-man dev squad with two plasmcannons. We can all do the maths on that one, but how do you think it really works on the battlefield? I'm asking because I've been thinking of using one myself..
The army is essentially a shooting one, the list above is around 1000 points provided you go for the lesser HQ, some fo those 6 man squads drop to 5 to fit in.
Tac squads generally dont ever enter the razors, the razors are effecively anti armour, you are gettign a TL las cannon for less than 100 points which can easily take out your opponents heavy tanks (Land Raiders, falcons, vindis, preds, Leman Russ, defilers have all fallen prey to these), they tend to get popped by turn 3 or so, but that is fine - I deployu them out of sight, they move 6 inches in turn 1 and shoot, once the las cannon gets shot off they advance as mobile cover, last outing, one immobalised an LRE, it promptly lost its TL las cannon so it drove up in front of the Russ and basically obscured its LOS to the entire battle field. The tac squads provide fire support, the MLs can be used to take otu additional armoru if needed, but they tend to pour bolter and missile fire onto the advancing enemy, If I out shot him by turn 4 or so they have been known to advance, also if he gets troops into my lines again after turn 4 they may help the larger tac squad
The only assault element is the 8 man squad plus HQ, waht they do tends to depend on the opponent, for counter assault they will provide bolter fire and stay quite central then charge anything that gets close to my line, otherwise I move them forwards through cover, focussing fire support on those squads that have LOS to them, generally they do lose a man or 2 as they advance, on the odd occasion the squad has come close to being wiped out but generaly they are pretty sucessful
Dev squad: I have sometimes put these in the troop squads, specifically 2 and 3, but the ammassed firepower of between 2 and 4 plasma is dreadfull, generalll these will try and target his best units, typicalyl assault squads accomanied by HQs, the effect is devestating, sure I amy lose 1 but I will put a lot of templates on his best squads, supported by bolters, this usually pulls his teeth, The biggest problem with this squad is the deployment, inevitably it is often, being hS, deployed before, his elited, FA and HQ, so he will tend to be warry of it, which may give it limited targets.
Equally the squad often draws a lot of fire, particuarly if he gets first turn as these will be deployed in cover with gtood LOS wheras the vehicles will, if at all possible, be out of sight, as wil lthe larger tac squad, so he tends to have a choice of 2 small tac squads or this dev squad, in this case the squad tends to get dropepd to 2 or 3 men, but that is ok cos by this point he is focussed on it, the rest of my army rolls out and opens up, generally it means I have sacrificed half a dev squad to gaurentee first round shooting to me
Everything you have been told is a lie!
This is what I like to call real battle field tactics. :yes: And is exactly the kind of thing I'd love to see more of..Equally the squad often draws a lot of fire, particuarly if he gets first turn as these will be deployed in cover with gtood LOS wheras the vehicles will, if at all possible, be out of sight, as wil lthe larger tac squad, so he tends to have a choice of 2 small tac squads or this dev squad, in this case the squad tends to get dropepd to 2 or 3 men, but that is ok cos by this point he is focussed on it, the rest of my army rolls out and opens up, generally it means I have sacrificed half a dev squad to gaurentee first round shooting to me
If points allow it, I always include my terminator librarian with his 4-man retinue in a drop pod. I converted him myself, and he's the greatest mini in my army. This is still kind of a cliche combo, but I usually drop him right into my enemy's lines. The squad's 2 assult cannons make short work of the most dangerous unit, and then the libbie scares the rest off with Fear of the Darkness. I have used this combo sucessfully quite often, and the librarian has even managed to scare 2 full necton warrior squads into running away (and off the board, yay phase out! )
Despite what many people say, I find Fury of the Ancients (aka the beam of brokenness) less effective than this tactic, as the few hits it scores rarely cause enough damage for a leadership test, and most units have sufficient LD to pass their pinning tests...
"I have died a thousand deaths, and I will die a million more..."
Nowadays? Its always been like this.Originally Posted by thomoryWell, your best bet is to say so when you post a list. For other people however, if they say anything along the lines of "How can I improve my list" or "tourny comming up, need a better list" then really, we must oblige them dont we. Especially new people to the forums.Originally Posted by thomoryWell, that all depends on what each player thinks is fun. That is fun to you. Anyone else who thinks thats fun probably does the same. Shoudl everybody do it just because YOU think its fun? No. People should do what they think is fun.Originally Posted by thomoryWe do this periodically. Viktor did a great job writing a rhino tactica. Even though rhinos certainly arent a very effective unit.Originally Posted by thomoryNo problem, your english was actually pretty good.Originally Posted by thomory
In any case, someone brings up this point every few months. Its talked about for a bit and we all always come to the exact same conclusion. People are here for different reasons. Some want to win, others like to be unique. It always comes down to this: When you post a list in the army list section, let everyone know what it is you want. If your brushed up on all the effective things that everyone talks about, say so, and say your looking for alternatives.
The real problem is this. We have no way of knowing the quality of oponents people face. So, what may work for one person may not work for another. The classic example is flamers on models that move 6". Some people swear by them, others know how useless they can be. When playing against good oponents, flamers on models that move 6" are easilly denied, check the tactica for details. Against tactically inept players, or kids, flamers tend to work out great! So, in the end, when were giving advice or talking about strategy and tactics its nice to pass around stories about what has worked for us but if we want to give reliable advice and tactics, we must consider every oponent to be a pro. When every oponent is a pro, you need to use the things that actually work.
Ive watched this happen a few times now. People get upset at the standard advice and try and get people to go other routes. It never works and everyone eventually goes back to suggesting the same old thing. I meen dont get me wrong, id love to have some threads about things that HAVNT been talked about to death. Unfortunately thats not going to happen.
What I think WOULD be a good direction for such a thread as this is exactly what yuo described, but with an important bit added. Namely, the situation that this uncommon unit/upgrade/wargear worked for you. This includes what you were attemtpting to do, how your oponent tried to stop you, what army they play, there relative skill, and most importantly, what they SHOULD have done to stop you. This way, if a reader finds themselves in a similar situation, they will have your knowledge to rely on. But it is very important that it be good advice so be thorough and give all the information you can.
Mentor of Space Marine Commanders far and wide.
Efficiency VS Point Cost VS Ease Of Use - Your best bets:
1) Chaplain led Assault squad - 2 plasma pistols, powerfisted sergeant
2) 8 man Devastator squad - 4 missile launchers
3) Land Speeder Tornado - HB + AC
Sorry if I offended you chaosbrynn. I'm aware of all the things you talk about but didn't bring it up because it's not what I wanted to be discussed here.This is exactly my intention with this post... Maybe I wasn't clear enough about it...What I think WOULD be a good direction for such a thread as this is exactly what yuo described, but with an important bit added. Namely, the situation that this uncommon unit/upgrade/wargear worked for you. This includes what you were attemtpting to do, how your oponent tried to stop you, what army they play, there relative skill, and most importantly, what they SHOULD have done to stop you. This way, if a reader finds themselves in a similar situation, they will have your knowledge to rely on. But it is very important that it be good advice so be thorough and give all the information you can.