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Well today i played my first games, with a reasonable list and i got wiped twice by very large margins.
Game 1 - Against Demon Hunters
I deployed tank in cover with range of most of the feild, placed 2 tac squads next to them in cover. Deployed Assault squad on the other side of the feild behind a hill ready to jump over and assault some grey knight justicars or somethin.
Turn 1- He moves forward a bit, i dont shoot atall because i cant.
Turn 2 - His grey knight termys deep strike like 12 inches away from my tank/marines, but my tank is facing the wrong way and is behind cover looking at the 2 squads of justicars or something that were already deployed. He rapid fires them storm bolters, bye bye 2 marines.
I rapid fire back, with 2 squads, 1 termy down(to a bolter, stupid useless plasmagun)
Predator Annialator shoots his other justicar squad, 1 down to TWLC.
I assault justicars with my assault squad. 1 Justicar Down.
His justicars fight back and hurt kill 2 assault marines.
My powerfist assault marine kills another justicar.
Turn 3- He moves his termis 6 inch, shoots my tac squad, there goes another 2.
Assaults my tac squad. There goes the last 2.
His second justicar squad assaults my assault squad.
My Chaplain misses/doesnt wound with all its attacks. Then his justicar hero dude with 2 attacks wipes my chaplain 2 the floor. The rest of his justicars wipe out my assault marines. Doh, there goes my 260pt assault unit, and in return i killed 3 justicars
Termys Assault my Second Tac squad, they all die.
I shoot his justicars, 1 down again thanks to TWLC.
Turn 5. There goes my tank.
GG 2 u. What the hell happened. Stupid predator only killed 2 guys, both with TWLC, heavy bolters did nothing. Assault squad charged a 5 man justicar squad, and only killed 2 guys..., even after rerolling hits, powerfists + termy honours sergenat, chappy with crozius arcanum, termy honours, bolt pistol. Then i got wiped by a 50pt justicar hero dude.
Then, plasmagun + bolter rapid fire into grey knights.
4 plasmagun shots + 20 bolter shots kills 1 of em .
What went wrong!!!!
Game 2 - Chaos Iron Warriors
Turn 1, him, his pred moves out shoots my tac squad, 2 dead marines.
His dreadnaught goes beserk and shoots his freind once and causes a wound on the chaos luitenant.
Turn 1, me, my pred moves out and shoots his pred, nothing.
My assault squad moves into cover in the middle of the table.
Turn 2, him, his pred shoots my pred, hits, penetrates, immobilised + stunned.
His lascannon in tac squad 1 shoots my pred in the side, immobilized(bye bye turret lascannon)
His dreadnaught goes beserk again and moves 6 inch towards me(right next to heavy cover), then rages forward 6 inch through cover into my assault squad.
He kills 2 guys, i do nothing.
Turn 3, his pred shoots and stuns my pred, lascannon stunns, other lascannon immobilized(bye bye heavy bolter 1)
Dreadnaught kills 2 more assault marines, i do nothing(useless powerfist).
Turn 4, his pred kills my pred. His lascannons start targeting my tac squads, kills 1 from each.
Dreadnaught wounds chappy once. I immobilize him(bout time)
Turn 5, his pred shoots my tac squad, bye bye 2. His lascannons shoot my tac squads, bye bye 1 from each.
My sergeant with powerfist dies and so does my chaplain .
His luitenant with kigun shoots and kills 1 tac squad guy.
Turn 6, his pred shoots my tac squad and kills the rest. Now i got 1 tac squad with 2 guys, and thats it.
GG 2 u. Ohyeah i rapid fired into an obliverator or terminator or something for 2 turns and managed to kill it, otherwise bad rolls and only managed to immobilize a dread.
So what went wrong?? Again!
Last edited by Cypher_Killz; March 10th, 2006 at 11:18.
Current Professional Career
Total Gaming Career since 29/02/06
Hmm. No comment on the Iron Warriors (know nothing about them), but here's some thoughts on the Grey Knights:
1st off - Those are power armored Grey Knights. call 'em Grey Knights, PAGK, whatever. The Squad Leaders (with the power weapons) are the ones that are actually called Justicars.
OK, first problem - you just got plain unlucky with his Termies. They dropped in close, weathered the shooting, and closed to assault. That's what they're built to do, and quite possibly nothing in the Marine list short of Termies or assault specialized Vets/Command squads can reliably stand up to them. They'll hit on 3's, and kill outright on 2's, without having to wait for powerfists - without a big edge in numbers, you really didn't have much hope.
On a related note, they got to the rear of the Predator, and that many S6 hits to the rear/flank armour was all but guaranteed to hurt. If anything you should have just dashed the tank away at full speed right off the bat - you're immensely safer at range.
Again, you ran into bad luck with the Assault squad, too.
Remember that ALL Grey Knights are just as skilled in combat as Marine Characters - so your command units are on even terms, but your regular marines will have trouble hitting them and they'll have an easy time hitting your marines. And those Nemesis Weapons let them hurt you REALLY easily. Remember as well that those Storm Bolters are just as powerful as a Rapid Firing Bolter, but at 24 inches and they're assault weapons.
After all, paying nearly double the points per man compared to your marines does come with some pretty sweet perks. ^_^ ^_^
Having said that, an Assault squad led by a Chaplain should normally maul a GK unit pretty badly, as that's one of the nastiest units you've got. Bad dice kept you from killing much, and good dice let him paste you pretty good. Both the Marines and the GK's were built for combat here, they were just a bit better this time.
My best advice is to either hang back and shoot the GK's, or skip the tanks and such so you can just swamp them under sheer numbers. Ultimately they're well equipped and highly skilled Marines, but Marines nonetheless - they die just as easily as your guys do, so just throw enough hits at them and those 1's and 2's will come up eventually. Don't assault unless you've got a significant edge, because that's where the Grey Knights are at their strongest.
Im confused, from the way you explained things, it seems as if there was only 12 or 18 inches seperating you from your oponent at the beginning of the game.
How big was the table you played on?
Against the GK's nothing that didnt deepstrike should get to you sooner then turn 4 if your playing standard setup.
Against the IW, Im not sure how his Dread managed to get past your lascannons, but im sure there was a reason.
All in all, you seemed to just roll really badly.
Mentor of Space Marine Commanders far and wide.
Efficiency VS Point Cost VS Ease Of Use - Your best bets:
1) Chaplain led Assault squad - 2 plasma pistols, powerfisted sergeant
2) 8 man Devastator squad - 4 missile launchers
3) Land Speeder Tornado - HB + AC
You also seemed to miss some anti-tank support. Just one predator with lascannons is a glowing beacon, or a bullet magnet of sorts. Try giving a squad somethink like lascannon or something else with at least 8 strength. A dreadnaught with TL lascannon is always nice.
Against the GK's, you should have tried to hide the back armour buy putting it behind cover and back to the board edge. I bet the player had the biggest grin on his face when his termies landed so close to your rear of everything. Maby next time you play a pure GK daemonhunter army, I recommend loosing the assaults, as others have mentioned the superiority the others have in CC. The chaplain is ok, but I'm leaning towards using a commander or sorts in this. Librarians would be the most expensive mistake you could make. Maby something like bikers with a meltagun in the squad could replace the assault, using your greater mobility and stronger weapon to your advantage.
The only CSM i've ever played was Thousand Sons, so I cant help you too much.
If all else fails, More troops, more troops, and if you have the points.. more troops
Sleeping, not dead.
Removed by the moderators.
Sounds like there was some bad initial troop placement, but moreover your dice rolling was really bad too. I wouldn't sweat it, on the GK's, they seemed to close really fast with you and had some burly HTH units that I dont see you doing much about at that point, especially if you've offended the dice gods. Let us know how your next few fights go.
I've got to tell you, I've been there. I just started 40K 5 months ago. I bought some Space Marines, got em painted and jumped right into two battles. First was against Black Templars who took an oath that made them Ultramarines Killers. I got my clock cleaned. Next I took on some Nurlge Chaos army and got pushed around like a little kid who got on the wrong bus.
I went to my store owner friend and said, "wuts the deel? I spend all this money on these so-called really tough guys, and everyone I fight is tougher and stronger!!??" I was pretty punched out of shape. Now I am doing much better after about ten games.
The most important advice I can give you is this: don't sweat it. Grey Knights and Iron Warriors are some of the few armies that are tougher than you. They are both just beefed up Space Marines. But you can still beat them with better tactics.
Unfortunately no tactics in the world will help when the dice are bad. I've seen Space Marines lose cc against Tau when the dice were bad. On other days, when the dice are good, those enemies can't wait to die for my Ultramarines! I've even gone back and kicked those Black Templar butts a coupla times since then, and with an IG player we clobbered 6000 points of choas, including two greater demons. Hang in there!
Once a Marine, always a Marine.
If you want to beat GK, you definitely need to add as many things into your army that ignore saves as possible. When his GK cost nearly twice as much as your tactical marines, even losing one hurts a bunch. Armor too. GK can only get decent anti tanks weaponry on dreadnoughts and landraiders. Never get in combat with your tacs against gk. This just protects his gk from plasma while he slaughters your tactical marines, only needing a 3+to hit and 2+ to wound you.
Et imperator Invocato Diabolus Daemonica Exorcist!
yeah well thats just what happened, we played on a 6x4 table deploying on 6foot sides and apparently we can setup within 15inch of our table edge. Considering the fact that most of the terrain on my side was 15inch in i stuck my pred hull down(i had to deploy first), then tac squads all in the 1 woods looking out into nowhere. Where as my assault squad couldnt deploy within 24inch of his justicars, so i had to deploy behind my hill which was on the 15ch mark from my edge.
Against the dreadnaught, it started behind cover, and tried to walk around, but instead failed one of them beserk thingies and ran 6 inch towards my units in cover, and then another 6 inch through it, strait into me.(Just because its a solid ruins doesnt mean its solid enuf 2 dreadnaughts, lesson learnt) So that was my stupidity being within 12 inch of it. And also the fact that i had a powerfist in my assault squad + a chappy with crozius arcanum didnt do anythin. (3 turns of close combat, 3 attacks with powerfist per turn and all i managed was an immobilized) So now i had an immobilized dread with a TLPC in ruins that could shoot out and still got a cover save, bah.
Last edited by Cypher_Killz; March 11th, 2006 at 05:27.
Current Professional Career
Total Gaming Career since 29/02/06
Your chaplain should have died outright from dreadnought attack because its double strength unless you paid points for mantle.
I think its mostly your list. You have an extremly balanced list against armies that can kill marines by the droves. Gk's are the master of CC in every way don't even bother assaulting really. *unless its the chaplain assault squad and even then the odds are kinda bad*......just buy a devestator squad of four plasma cannons or something to wipe them out. THey die like marines too.
Iron warriors.......just bad setup if he could get the dreadnought in that fast and bad moves on your part giving him the opportunity to do so. But mostly bad luck, you should have been able to win that one.
bad first day but keep your head up. (this is why I tell my friends not to consider SM as the only good option because they have many faults hidden behind their above average stats)
Raven Claws Space Marine Chapter........2500 points
Waagh Rotskrag (in building process)
Member of the Fluffmaster Clan
well i moved up my assault squad 12 inch into ruins so 2nd turn i could charge either of their two 5 man lascannon squads or into their dread or pred. And my chappy shoulda died outright but he didnt pick up on that .
But is a justicar allowed to allocate all its attacks on a chaplain thats in a squad though?
Current Professional Career
Total Gaming Career since 29/02/06