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I know there have been debates about which is better for the points; GKT or PAGK. Well I crunched some numbers the other day and came up with some ineteresting results that you may all find useful:
All comparisons are made using a ten-man space marine tactical squad, in rapid-fire range, with a lascannon and a plasma gun, and a bolter on the sergeant. The point discrepency between the two GK units used is minimal enough to give us a good idea how PAGK and GKT stack up to each other...
9 Power-Armored Grey Knights and 1 Justicar (275 pts): suffer 1.74 casualties from 16 bolter shots, 1.12 casualties from the plasma gun rapid-firing, and .56 casualties from the Lascannon, for a total of 3.42 casualties in one shooting phase. This works out to be 34% of the squad's Victory Points lost to enemy fire, leaving 6 GK and 1 Justicar standing slightly more than half the time.
5 Grey Knights in Terminator Armor and 1 Brother-Captain (291 pts): suffer .84 casualties from 16 bolter shots, .74 casualties from the plasma gun, and .37 casualties from the lascannon, for a total of 1.95 casualties in one shooting phase from one tac squad. This works out to be 33% of the squad's VPs lost to enemy fire, leaving 3 GKT and 1 B-C standing.
*As you can see, theoretically both squads have equal defensive capability. The PAGK are much more surviveable when claiming a cover save, but this is balanced by the fact that GKT don't ever need to rely on cover to survive, and are more free to move as they please. PAGK win out in 4+ cover only because they have more models, but they will never have that beautiful 2+ save (very powerful against armies with few low-ap weapons).
The PAGK generate 18 str 6 attacks at WS5 and 3 Str 6 Power Weapon attacks at WS5 in one round of assault. They also generate 20 bolter shots per turn at 24" range. In any given round, if a PAGK squad can shoot at and then charge a Space Marine squad, the numbers work like this: 20 bolter shots: 2.17 kills, 21 attacks in assault with aforementioned stats: another 3.33 kills from NFW and 1.68 kills from the Justicar. This is a grand total of 7.18 casualties inflicted on a squad of Space Marines in one turn.
The GKT generate 12 storm bolter shots and 19 str 6 power-weapon attacks given the same circumstances. The storm bolters kill 1.3 space marines, and the power weapons dispatch 7.3 space marines, for a total of 8.6 space marines killed in one turn.
Because a squad of Space Marines was used as the base for this example, it should be understood that the PAGK perform better against lightly armored infantry and as "footsloggers" because they generate more shooting attacks and attacks in assault. The terminators aren't overly useful until they get to assault, and are therefore often better off deep-striking or riding in a land raider. On average, the terminators will kill more in assault (against heavily armored opponents only) than the PAGK, and the PAGK will kill more via shooting. The terminators really shine when taking on targets that PAGK can't handle, such as tyranid monstrous creatures, wraithlords, command squads, independent characters, and other hard targets.
Analysis: while PAGK and GKT "die off" at the same rate, they have different offensive specialities. PAGK perform fire support marginally better than Terminators (although if using Psycannons terminators are more effective because they can move and shoot at 36"), while the Terminators perform marginally better (and a lot better versus tough targets) than PAGK in assault.
Conclusion: Any Demonhunters force that includes Grey Knights would do well to include at least one squad of Terminators. Terminators do follow a diminishing returns to scale curve, so you want to strike a balance between points invested in GKT and points invested in PAGK. Terminators also get the nifty option to weild thunder hammers and storm shields, making them the ultimate choice for fighting greater demons, monstrous creatures, and any vehicle. PAGK have no such option, and are generally confined to attacking only enemy infantry.
Very nice, very interesting. Thanks!
I'd give you rep points here, but you already got them from me for your LR post.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
Then I'll do it for both of us Number6.
Excellent post, glad to finnally see the hard stats on GK's and GKT's. Even with this info though I still find myself using an army list with no GKT's and many GK's. This is simply because I footslogg and I like the two or three turns of extra storm bolter shooting that I get by having many walking GK's vs. the one turn of limited bolter fire gotten from a DSing GKT squad (though your point about psycannons remains very valid)
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
well...i learned something today, but personally, Iplay with a list alot like that, an LRC, termies, Knights in the LRC, i dont like footslogging. Termies strike, take pout the monsters, and storm troopers give me the fire support.
I didn't think they would be as balanced as they are, though it seems that they are balanced against MEQ armies, I think they are hugely different against armies that don't have mostley three plus saves. Keep in mind the PAGKs will awasly shoot better, but at somepoint they will be better in hand to hand (against kroot they will have almost twice as many attacks, both not getting a save). So the new question becomes how do I balance my list with termies and PAGK, knowing that I am going to fight more than just MEQ armies. Remember if you bring lots of Termies against orks you are basically throwing the game, as the power weapon is less important, and the save bonus doesn't really help you.
So before everyone goes out and buys terminators to replace their FAGK (which is what termies should be doing) remember that often will not help as much as PAGK in all of your battles, and can often become a point sink against some armies.
So how much more useful would a squad of Terminators be if they had holocaust?
Colonel, your analysis is very good, epecially considering the amount of MEQ armies out there.
The one area where it PAGK come out out way ahead of GKT Termies is against hord armies like Orks, IG, and even Eldar, (except Wraithlords). In this area PAGK are far more usefull against the weeker armoured enemies. They are also better against most armour as you get more attacks on AV10-12 than you do with termies.
I think it is all about balance. In 1500pt+ games, I play with a Grandmaster and Retinue for just those types of MC enemies, and let my FAGK and PAGKs deal with the rest of the troops.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Nice to see an opinion based against some hard facts. Great work! I am painting up a squad of GKT right now ( I already have 15 PAGK done) for my fledgling DH army, but I really don't see myself fielding more than about 5 termies. Your work just confirms what I intuitively knew - GKT are effective, but not really worth going gonzo over. My PAGK, however, I plan to get up to at least 25-30 in number. Thanks again for the stats! Have some rep.
Marion: You're not the man I knew ten years ago.
Indiana: It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage.
For the last time, there are
NO FEMALE SPACE MARINES!!!!!
Diggum's Hammer hit the nail on the head--it's all about balance.
Perhaps I wasn't as strong on this as was necessary on my first post--PAGK will perform much better versus an enemy with light armor (4+ save or worse). Therefore your "balance" of PAGK/GKT should be scewed more towards PAGK. They will perform much better as all-around troops, but do tend to get bogged down in masses of 3+ armor saves (GKT are indispensible, for instance, against Necrons and Tyranid monstrous creatures).
PAGK are much, much better at shooting, killing twice as many meqs as GKT in one round of shooting, and even more against light infantry (stormbolters make IG commanders cry). Your general tactics, therefore, should revolve around an all-purpose role for PAGK, and a pinpoint-strike role to destroy a specific target with your GKT. I like my GKT to walk it in certain battles, and having a psycannon or two in the squad is a huge advantage when walking them up the board. You pay premium for the extra firepower, though.
Really, the two unit types compliment each other perfectly, although a pure-PAGK army is probably the more competitive build. Personally, I keep my PAGK and GKT close together, and this works perfectly as anything the GK can't handle the Terminators step in and either absorb the charge or counter-charge to annihlate the problem unit. Also worth noting is that PAGK in general are better for absorbing charges (I.E. defensively played) because they don't ever benefit from +1 A for charging, although you should ALWAYS charge your enemy if you can help it because if he gets the charge bonus it can really hurt your GK. GKT are the ultimate counter-charge unit, and just about the only thing they can't handle is a C'Tan. Another reason why I like 4 TLLC in my army, but that's another topic.
As far as holocaust on terminators: Don't EVER use this upgrade unless you are giving the holocaust power to an independent character, and the terminator squad is his retinue. Why? Because if you upgrade a normal GKT squad to have holocaust, and they suffer a perils of the warp attack, EVERY MEMBER of the squad takes a Str 6 hit with no saves of any kind allowed! That means that each of your terminators dies outright on a 2+! This is obviously a very, very bad thing to have happen. This is negated if you are taking the GKT as a retinue for a Brother Captain or a Grand Master, as the psychic attack would only be resolved against that single model.
I don't play DH but wouldn't the termie retinue be affected bu the holocaust power if only the IC used it? I thought holocaust affected everything within its radius but the person casting it. The brother captain of a unit of termies is the focus for the termies so they are all casting the power. but an IC is a separate unit as far holocaust is concerned.Originally Posted by Colonel_Ellios
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