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I was just wondering in a cityfight would it be wise to give your troops the hardened fighter docine??
hmm, tough question.
If this was for anything other then cityfight, I would say that hardened fighters is an egregious waste of time. One point of ws isn't worth it when you're generally striking 2nd, and vs. opponents who either have nice armor saves, and are stronger, tougher, and better equipped then you.
But this is for cityfight, isn't it? I see cityfight being about the close combat armies (And as mentioned in some other thread, guard work too for their own reasons). I think it would be safe to assume that most armies in an urban enviornment are out to get into close combat (a sweeping generalization, but one that will generally hold water). So, perhaps now even more then usual it's a good idea to be ready for such? By virtue of being in cover (it's CITYfight, there should be buildings everywhere) the problem with guardsmen striking at crappy initiative is solved, as long as they're recieving the charge they'll strike first, or at the very worst, at the same time. Therefore, it's now probably worthwhile to start looking into the close combat life expectancy of a guardsmen, because it's feasible to do that now. Being able to hit meqs 50/50 is a neat little trick, and something rarely expected from an Imperial Guard commander. But, hitting them isn't enough in this game. A guardsmen would still need to roll a 5+ to wound your average Marine, and on top of that he gets that cushy power armor save. The chances of guardsmen killing marines, even if they're striking first with hardened fighters still really isn't all that good. Hardened Fighters, unlike say, close order drill, costs points, and in the process of applying that to your army, you could be sacrificing the opporotunity to have brought 1 or 2 more squads of guardsmen, for what is essentially closing the barn door after the horse got out (and ripped through your front line). To me, that's a bad trade, because guardsmen in close combat, no matter how you tool them, are still guardsmen in close combat, and unless you're playing the Tau, close combat for your guard squads is generally considered a bad idea. That's not to say you can't surprise foes who don't rely on power armor saves (genestealers?) and land a few quick kills before the inevitably counter attack and wipe your squad out, but generally most opponents have nice enough armor that your resistance is futile... So, in short, I would not reccommend taking Hardened Fighters. However, due to the unique rules, taking hf is only a venial sin in this situation, rather then the jaw droppingly stupid waste of points that it is in regular guard armies.
If you want some close combat goodness though, I think the amount of terrain makes it quite possible that Ogryns could really shake it up in Cityfight. The thing that really sucks about Ogyrns is their flak armor that can't be in any other way upgraded or augmented ie with the carapace doctrine. But, all these nice, burned out buildings, make excellent places to hide. And with hiding places comes cover saves, and suddenly, now that the ogryns can survive a round of fire, it's all of the sudden not just possible, but feasible that they can either act as a screen for your guardsmen, or lurk about the city and ambush assault troops or counter-charge. And, if you look at their stat line, they're not too shabby in hand to hand. In fact, their quite nasty, and thoroughly resiliant (imagine tossing on a commissar to make them pretty much fearless... yeah)
Or, if you want another close combat option, rough riders are still the greatest thing in the guard's close combat arsenal. With the potential to catch a bunch up terminator assault squad, or some other high strength, nice armor save target worth loads of points in some allyway and then eat them with a lance charge. Or, alternatively, if you don't think that they're going to live through your opponent's shooting phase, I'm pretty sure that they can still hide out in buildings... you might want to double check that, but I'm 96% sure that's right.
But I wouldn't reccommend going for a cc oriented guard army in any situation, especially in cityfight. The guard have such a quirky and unique advantage in cityfight, and it's the farthest thing from close combat. Your best bet is to load up on guard squads, toss in some hellhounds, a couple of demolishers or bassies, and then just remember to spread you're squads out.
"And any man who comes through this fight mostly unharmed will be my sister! It'll be free frocks and jollies for ever, you'll see!"
- Rome: Total War
9th Black Watch (Imperial Guard) 4000 points
Red Corsairs of Khorne 2000 points
Space Wolves 13th Company 2000 points
As he said, CC Guard is generally a bad idea, but it does have some merit in Cityfight. It's already been stated that most of your opponents will be hulking brutes like Marines or CC monsters like 'stealers, so your odds of winning are very nearly nil.
Speaking as a Marine player, I can personally attest to watching my pair of Assault Squads slam into either side of a 1500 point Guard army on a tournament cityfight table, then grinding their way together to meet in the middle over the corpses of about 1400 points of Guardsmen. The simple fact is that those poor Guardsmen couldn't have stopped the onslaught if they'd tried - but holding it up would have bought their comrades enough time to cause some damage.
My main edge was that the squads folded almost as fast as I hit them, and the extra movement took me well within range of the next squads. If it had been harder for me to hit them, the assault might have slowed up enough for the rest of the army to do their thing, instead of just dying on the spot.
ok but If took ganuts ghosts And I was in cover of a building you would slowed down heaps (because of the camocloak's 1+cover save) and i would just try and hold the line with flamers, snipers and missle launchers.Speaking as a Marine player, I can personally attest to watching my pair of Assault Squads slam into either side of a 1500 point Guard army on a tournament cityfight table, then grinding their way together to meet in the middle over the corpses of about 1400 points of Guardsmen. The simple fact is that those poor Guardsmen couldn't have stopped the onslaught if they'd tried - but holding it up would have bought their comrades enough time to cause some damage.
thanks for the huge answer.
would heavy flamer sentinals (with the HD doc) be pretty usefully?
what other weapons would be good for cityfight??
Hardened veterans isn't mandatory for every squad so you could just give i to a few and have them act as buffers or, with frag grenades and flamers, counter chargers. Cameleoline is probably your best bet though. Ruined buildings can often be counted as heavier (4+) cover which with the stealth bonus gives a 3+ invulnerable save... Even if it just counts as cover you still get 4+ invulnerable, effectively cutting your losses from shooting by half if the board is terrain-heavy (as it should be).
gaunts ghosts are sounding better by the minute for city fight!!! what about melta guns and plasma's be pretty usefull?