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Ok, so some of you know i play SM. And I play Infantry heavy SM. In fact, Infantry exclusive. Anyway, I've something like 320 SM infantry models, all in near completeion. And for several reasons...asthetics, Tacticsa, Flavor...whatever, I have decided ot branch out and get a vehicle or two. This is also to challenge my painting and modelling abilites. Anyway...I've decided on a few things-
1) Squad of 3 Landspeeder Tornado's. THe 9 Heavy bolter and 12 Assault cannon shots should make up for the firepower I'd lose, and I've some good ideas I think for modeling them. Now question is...am I going to regret the money and paiting cause they get wasted 1st or second turn every game? Or shall I give it a whirl?
2) Couple of Dreads. i hav eone, it's the one I got with the SM Battle force of 200. and i assembled it without really knowing what 3rd Editions rules were so much...lol, and my buddy telling me assault cannons were 36' inches. So i't sgot an asssault cannon and Missile launcher. Niot exactly compatible weaponry I know, but eh. lol. Anyway, with only 2-3 attacks in CC IF he gets in CC. Or as mobile anti-tank support. Is the dread good? Or is he getting popped right off the bat?
3) NOT doing a landraider. I think it's the most boring 250 Pt. Model in any armies list. Just not willing ot pay 250 Pts for a max 3-4 casualties a turn. I have the Landraider that came in same set as dread, never really found it fun.
4) I am going to get a Predator. Probably give it Lascannons and Sponson heavy bolters so it can double duty as Anti Armor, anti Infantry.
5) I believe i will also be getting a Vindicator, as the SM ordnance looks too good to pass up. AS well as the fact that I play gainst High Toughness, 3+ save armies mostly.
6)Whirlwind, good or bad?
Anyway, thanks for any response I get.
In response to a couple of things you asked:
Whirlwinds: usualy quite good, put them behind some cover in your rear lines and just let them rain death on any infantry out there.
Landraider: Yeah sure the normal LR doesn't look to enticing but what about LR Crusader??? lots more guns and when placed on a table just makes you want to throw your head back and get that evil laugh going.
Other vehicles, yeah not really to sure, but in my experience the Landspeeder to your enemys is just like an annoying fly with a painfull bute that you just HAVE TO kill.
Hope this helps.
SON'S OF TERRA......... Your defeat, its the emperor's will
I like the idea of a Predator. They are fairly cheap and can pump out a load of firepower. I agree with you on the Landraider. Too expensive, you can have two Preds for that.
Don't dis the Landspeeders, they totally rock. Keep them out of range or low on the target prority list, and they will live. Save them for game defining moments, and swoop in with the HB and As. Cannon. Use them for objective grabbing. I like my LS. sniff.
Beware the Agapanthers!
Codex Astartes: More a guideline than a rule...
Tornados are far and away the best tank space marines can have. They are suprisingly durable for AV 10, and very fun to use. However they are an unforgiving unit, so if you make a mistake, they are gone.1) Squad of 3 Landspeeder Tornado's. THe 9 Heavy bolter and 12 Assault cannon shots should make up for the firepower I'd lose, and I've some good ideas I think for modeling them. Now question is...am I going to regret the money and paiting cause they get wasted 1st or second turn every game? Or shall I give it a whirl?
My advise, buy them, if your not good enough to use them when you start, they will Make you better.
Ive found the more conservativly i play with them the better. I really only open up with them turn 4 through 6, (unless its a huge hord army or something)
Definatly a buy.This pattern dreadnought: TLLC + ML, extra armor, venerable, tank hunter, works great at removing heavy tanks. Not good at much else though ( however if the enemy has 2 tanks, your gonna earn your points back that includes transports)Couple of Dreads. i hav eone, it's the one I got with the SM Battle force of 200. and i assembled it without really knowing what 3rd Editions rules were so much...lol, and my buddy telling me assault cannons were 36' inches. So i't sgot an asssault cannon and Missile launcher. Niot exactly compatible weaponry I know, but eh. lol. Anyway, with only 2-3 attacks in CC IF he gets in CC. Or as mobile anti-tank support. Is the dread good? Or is he getting popped right off the bat?
Or AC + DCCW, perhaps heavy flamer, (the storm bolter sometimes works better and its free, and free is a very good price) + drop pod, great unit, mostly scares your opponent, the game effect is not that signficant, however everyone once in awhile your run into an opponent whose got a squad to far forward with no powerfist, or something simliar, instantly your dread becomes worth it.
Also dreadnoughts offer great conversion opertunities.Consider the following: the tank hunting dreadnought is 170 points, LST is 80, total: 250.4) I am going to get a Predator. Probably give it Lascannons and Sponson heavy bolters so it can double duty as Anti Armor, anti Infantry.
Two preditors is 270.
The dreadnought and the speeder have better and greater firepower, and more tactical options for less points, i strongly suggest you reconsider this purchase.High toughness 3+ armies dont like getting hit with 10S AP1 Ordance. So instead of allowing you to kill them, they will ensure you die first.5) I believe i will also be getting a Vindicator, as the SM ordnance looks too good to pass up. AS well as the fact that I play gainst High Toughness, 3+ save armies mostly.
Vindicators are way too high profile for average point cost games, as such i sggest you not use them.
They are easy to kill, and remember the shot scatters, so its gonna be unlikely that youll ever really get that magic shot, which players normally buy vindi for. Good tactics and solid armies have no need for vindis.Well, this basically has the same job as a tornado, but its easier to use, and provides no anti tank. It also isnt as good against elite units. The tornado is a much better infanty and tank killer. However, whirldwinds are rediciously easy to use, just put the pie plate where you want it, and things die.6)Whirlwind, good or bad?
If your army is a bike army, i can see some use for using them, otherwise stick with tornados.
There are way more things a torando can do that a whirly simply cant.
So if your gonna buy anything, id rank them like this:
1, 2,5. Others are fairly worthless
I see no reason you can't use them early, if you start them on the board they will be able to move 12" every turn whilst firing to full effect, thus they have a 36" effective range with the AC and a 48" effective with the HB right from the get go. So I wouldn't say they are wasted on the first turns.1) Squad of 3 Landspeeder Tornado's. THe 9 Heavy bolter and 12 Assault cannon shots should make up for the firepower I'd lose, and I've some good ideas I think for modeling them. Now question is...am I going to regret the money and paiting cause they get wasted 1st or second turn every game? Or shall I give it a whirl?85 pts is mighty cheap to blast the crap outta most armies with. I take one personally, and feel they are an awesome tanks, however they begin to lose effect against marines. Though they are still only 85 pts. Also, they vare actually quite durable for a rhino chasis, as they can hide and fire just fine.6)Whirlwind, good or bad?
Nevermore Chapter: 6200 pts; 97/49/11; Longest Streak: 9 Wins/4 Losses; Nearing Completion
I agree alot with Furnace (a bad habbit I seem to be developing)
Land raiders are a no, besides being boring, they are fire magnets an expensive points wise.
The vindicator he is on the money too, although arguably it is a cheap way of drawing anti tank fire from other vehicles
LSTs are the dogs whatsits, although outside of raven wing I would be dubious about fielding a squad of 3
Your current dread weapons are not actually a bad mix, they can both do anti tank or anti infantry, but Furnaces weapons suggestions are the most common.
I like my preds as dedicated tank hunters, with las cannons all round, sure it can not move and shoot, but when it does shoot it puts the fear of god into other tanks
Whirlwinds are excellent used as Furnace described, although generally I only field them when I know I am facing light infantry
Everything you have been told is a lie!
i like the autocannon/heavy bolter/stormbolter combo on my pred. it's a nasty marine killer. ok, it doesn't negate saves, but you're rolling a lot of dice. the more saves you make your opponent take, the more he's going to fail.
now i like the vindicator. it's tough with a great weapon. since it can move and fire it's a better tank than it was. if you're playing against terminators it can be lethal. necrons also.
VoD immortals? no problem. consider putting PotMs on the vindi.
land speeder tornadoes? never leave home without them. just don't get "buck fever" sometimes it's worth just blasting up the table 24", forgoeing shooting to get into a better position for next turn.
"i am a leaf in the wind, see how i soar"
Well, seem liek agood few points of info. And thanks for everyone's input. I've decided that I'll go with these...
1) Landspeeder Tornado squad. That's just too much firepower to give up. And I'm big on the shottiness of SM.
2) I think, after deliberation...that I'm going to decide on the whirlwind for my SM ordnance. It looks good, is cheaper than the Vindicator points wise and the idea of making it high priority and dedicating enemies to hunting it out sounds good tactically.
3) I'm going to go with the Predator, I've a friend that can build it so it looks great and i can switch the sponsons and Turrets without any hassle. So It can double duty. I am going to grab one.
4) Still undecided on the Dread,w ould love some more educated Pro Vs. Con on the subject.
And as far as the landraiders. I still stand my ground. And even if I WAS to take one, it wouldn't ever be the Land Raider Crusader...I mean people talka botu "All the guns" But umm...It's abotu equivalent to a tricked out Tac Squad. Costs less and cant' get popped by one lucky shot.
Hope for some more good input! Thanks!
wowza. LR's are boring and awful? c'mooooooooooon. max 3-4 CASUALTIES a turn, yeah, but that's not what it's for! how bout practically guaranteeing a busted tank every turn? The only infantry you should be shooting at are the HQ who stumble out of their busted transport that you just EXPLODED in a stupor, whom you then proceed to kill via massive damage blasts that almost never miss. I dunno 'bout you, but dropping a fully tooled commander of any army in one shot is appealing to me (and did I mention it almost never misses?). Sure, 3-4 guardians is probably not very productive, but then again, that would not represent a very important target either. as for busted on a lucky shot... it has the best armor in the game. A very, very slight amount of deployment discretion could severely decrease the chances of that happening. Barring the railgun, which you can feasibly, if not easily hide from, there is nothing outside of 24" that can even scratch the paint without a 5+ on penetration, and that's with the freakin' lascannon. You're also completely overlooking the fact that opponents will sink everything they've got into taking down a land raider because it SCARES THE CRAP OUT OF THEM (and rightly so); and every squad they tie down shooting at the LR means that's one less squad shooting at whatever else you've got on the board. sure, I've seen them get waxed right out of the gate before, or doing something like crossing difficult terrain (2nd most hilarious thing in the world)...but it's almost always because the controller is doing something stupid with it, like leaving it in the open, getting too close to wraithlords or dreadnoughts or meltas, or trying to run through terrain. "the LRC is a tricked out tactical squad?" Yes, it is a tricked out tac squad in the sense that it doesn't miss, it busts tanks and infantry with equal nonchalance, most units can't harm it, and it carries a brand new tactical squad (or more likely termie squad) in its belly; in THAT sense, it is very much like a tricked out tactical squad. They're expensive but look what you're getting!! For your sake, I would think about some ways to keep it protected (because at 250+ pts it definitely becomes your baby), but use it. I have a crusader and a raider, and I have seen them change many, many tides of games as they weather enemy onslaughts and bust tank after tank (squad after squad for the 'sader). It's not indestructible, but it's the closest thing to it.
My apologies for the rantiness , it just causes me great pain to see folks rippin' on my boys. hope that didn't discredit the rest of this post, buuuut if it didn't...
Tornados are fragile, but awesome. If you avoid flying directly into your foes, and use cover and LOS to get to your target, in addition to keeping pressure on your opponent with other units, they can be devastating; especially a squad of three. Plus, speeders will allow you to quickly readjust your presence on the board.
naughts are fun and scary, and almost always get their points back and more. Personally, I like having a good shooty and choppy balance in my army, and dreads are perfect for that. They can take all the best guns, shoot on the run, and then wreck shop in CC. I love 'em, and always take 2 (and soon possibly three! yaaaaaay).
Pred's a good buy, no matter how you equip it, but I def reccomend HB sponsons.
Whirlwind I neither see much of or use personally, so I cannot give an educated opinion on, but as with most things in 40k, you get what you pay for.
the vindicator is, like the LR, a sponge. opponents hate it, and will do all they can to remove it from the board. If you're going to use it, I'd reccomend balancing it with another equally menacing model, so that your opponent has to choose which he hates less. There's always a lot to be said for attracting fire though.
Anywho, my apologies for coming on so strong here!! It's good to have disagreement though; keeps folks thinking.
Last edited by BarnyCarhamich; April 23rd, 2006 at 10:10.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
The Imperium Emporium: Jeb's Imperial Curiosities plog, starting with Grey Knights!
Ok lesse,..and I do appreciate and understand the passion of your post bro lol :-D
Landraider...when facing Orks...NOT alot to shoot at that's worth it lol. Same as IG after that leamn russ is gone, well um...Same problem.
A Landraider, unless using it to carry Termies or HQ, which I do not do..the idea of 250 PTS getting blown upa nd anotehr 2-300 Pts being tangled up n the mess for a turn becasue of al ucky Krak Missile of osmethign similar is not something I like to imagine dealing with. For anti Tank, a Landraider can't do anything a Devestator squad can't, and the Devs get more Lascannon shots. And for that matter...Witht he idea of equipping one of my Tornado's witha Multi melta add that to the Dread, Devs,a nd Lascannons int ac squads and my anti tanka bility is pretty spiffy already...BUt I do respect and recognize your opinions.
Land Raider Crusader...265 Pts for what? A max of 12 Bolet shots, with re-roll means 70-80% will hit. And 40-60% pf those will wound, and another 50% of those will be saved. And the ssault cannon is okay,b ut a full Tac Squad with Lascannon and Plasma gun can do just as much damage if not more. And is more survivable.
The main reasons I like the vehicle's I've decided on is that they compliment an army rather than having ot be the centerpiece as a LR is. My Centerpiece and back bone is always gonna be 40-60 Space marines, good ol' infantry. The Landraider is just too big a points sink, and after thinking and a game wher ei used a friends Whirlwind...they just don't pack the punch needed to put down power armoured foes. So If I get one it's gonna be later and dedicated to solely horde army busting.
Anyway, some more Educated input is welcome as i'm gonna go blow $100.00 this Friday and pick up some armor.
(Also, the landraider money wise is a crappy buy for what you get. Games workshop is just WAY to friggin greedy as far as their stuff goes, especially vehicles)