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I gather that Land Raider Cursaders aren't in very high regard around here and that Dreadnoughts are usually preferred (and a lot cheeper, too), but I was thinking about a
'Blitzkrieg' approach for my 2000 point Grey Knight army.
Has anyone experimented with something like that before?
Basically, I'd put in 2 LRC and 1 dread (TLLC/RL), mount 2 maxed out PAGK squads in the LRCs and rush at the enemy to tie him up right away. Both squads will be equipped with Teleport Homers to call in the "big boys" (a Grandmaster with Terminator retinue and another maxed out PAGK squad). The dread will give long range support to the LRCs. Up close, the LRCs and the Grey Knights should wreak havoc on most enemies.
Main problem: i'll have desperately few bodies on the battlefield (less than 40 models at 2000 points).
Of course, any opponent could easily scrap me with a couple of early lucky shots, so the question is: has anyone tried that before and how lucky must i be to get up close?
As an aside: if i take the "Psycannon Ammo" vehicle upgrade on the LRCs. does that mean that the Hurricane Bolters will use that upgrade?
Alternatively, I was thinking about putting Grey Knights into 2 Rhinos and blitz the enemy like that (and put the heap of left-over points into more Grey Knights and dreads) but i feel that the Rhino is just too weakly armoured to ever get across the battlefield, even in fthe enemy has something else to shoot at...
Well, the main problem is that you have few models and just a few lucky shots, or an enemy equipped with a lot of AV weaponry, can ruin your day.
Otherwise, it appears to be a solid plan. I've wanted to try something similar, but haven't had anything to reasonably proxy a second LRC so never tried it.
Psycannon bolts for vehicles: There has been debate about this. The wargear version affects all bolters and bolt-type (combi & pistol). The vehicle version only mentions storm bolters and heavy bolters. It seems they probably forgot the LRC uses regular bolters. The intent is that yes, psycannon bolts should work with hurricane bolters. The technical rules are that NO, only storm bolters and heavy bolters on vehicles are affected. Run it by your opponent and see if he/she minds.
Lastly, GK can never ride in Rhinos. The only transports that GK can use are LR/LRC bought as heavy support (if you're using a DH list).
Solomon, I suggest you use IST squads in Rhinos or Chimeras, with Teleport Homers, as your "rushing" force. If you're using inducted Guard, you can also toss in some Armored Fists for heavy & mobile firepower, although these don't get TP Homers (but you CAN give them Improved Comms, which help out with all those DSing units). Then you can use all of your GK as Deepstrikers, for significantly less points. You seemed set on a pure GK list, I know, so this may not appeal to you at all. But a pure GK list will have few enough models as it is, and thats before you bring in 500+ points of tanks.No Rhinos (or Chimeras) for GK, sorry.Originally Posted by SolomonI don't see how they "forgot" to include regular bolters - the two entries for psycannon bolts are clearly different, not just copy-pastes of each other. Makes sense to me that they would use larger caliber bolts for vehicles - how many use bolters?Originally Posted by dvang
Last edited by mEGALOMANIAC; April 23rd, 2006 at 22:59.
All the guys i played against so far agreed that the psycannon ammo upgrade should indeed work on the hurricane bolters - in practice, that hasn't been a problem yet, but i was wondering whether you guys have any errata or similar to back it up.
@megalomaniac: as you already expected, i'm a Grey Knights puritan - i have toyed around with the idea of IG and such, but i'm just too keen on keeping my army "pure" - even though that will mean i have VERY few models which is my main concern about the whole idea of a Grey Knight "blitz"...
I've drawn up the army list in the appropriate subforum - give it a look and comment.
i didn't realize that Grey Knights couldn't use Rhinos - the German version of the codex isn't specific about the transports - thanks for clearing that up!
Well so far I only Blitzkrieged Terminators out of a LRC at 1k. Needless to say it worked quite well. I had the remianing points filled with mobilised stormies softening up targets or taking donw MCs, but since i do have another Land Raider i will try it at 1500pts. I dont deepstrike, i dont like to deepstrike. Yes, the Bolts upgrade only works for heavy bolter and storm bolter, which is completly unfluffy because it clearly states "secondary weapon system", so iam assuming the AssCannon is the main.
But - clearly they also have normal bolter sized rounds in existence, I.E. the ones used with the infantry upgade... so, why not put them in the LRC? The hurricane bolters function as normal bolters, so, one would think that thay don't use especially outsized ammunition. if they were bigger, they'd be heavy bolters. Additionally, the storm bolters tacked on to some vehicles would then be larger too, by this logic, and clearly there is psycannon ammo for them. I disagree that it makes sense they would use a larger caliber, and even if they were, it seems to me that psychically impregnating ammunition, as it is described, is not a function of the size of the ammunition. If they can do it to heavy bolter rounds, and regular troop rounds, why not this proposed in-between size?Originally Posted by mEGALOMANIAC
On the other hand, I also agree that the rules *do not* say you can use psycannon bolts on hurricane bolters. It is, I would guess, a balance issue.. same as how you apparently cannot pychically empower say, a krak missle. So, in a friendly game, you should probably clear it with your opponent and use it with their ok, but otherwise, I'd say you're out of luck.
I wasn't saying that there aren't smaller caliber rounds, we know those exist. I was just saying that the vehicle psycannon bolts are for larger caliber weapons - hence why they don't also apply to bolters. But that argument is bunk because stormbolters are the same caliber as bolters (hence the same S & AP). So I'm talking out of my ass :shifty:Originally Posted by Miril
Regardless, the rules are clear and in three or four incarnations of the DH FAQ and a revised printing of the original DH codex, GW hasn't changed the wording of either the infantry or vehicle versions of psycannon bolts. If someone asked if they could count them for bolters as well, I'd say no - the rules leave no ambiguity on the issue, imo. Thats like asking if you can change the stats of any other weapon.
I agree with mEGA that the rules seem specific on that...
"Sad but true" [hey, i'm in a song quoting mood today!]
that vehicle upgrade is just one thing that is bugging me about the GK list, the higher cost of teleport homers (higher than the usual SM edition) is another. and why can't Grey Knights get drop pods (let alone their brother-captain having only one wound!)?
Ah, the myriad ways of the Emperor to show us just how dearly he loves us - after all, would He trust anyone but his most beloved warriors to overcome such burdens? Praise the Emperor! :yes:
I for one don't have any problem with the LRC. It's an incredibly expensive unit, but you get what you pay for. It is far, far more durable than a dreadnought. Ignoring the fact that its AV and weapons are far better than that of the chimera or rhino, the frag charges, machine spirit, and front gates make it a much better assault vehicle.
And a small number of units isn't necessarily a statistical disadvantage. With a small sample size, you're less likely to see consistent results, true. But you're just as likely to see erratic good results as you are erratic bad results. The performance of such an army will depend more on the dice than a larger force, where the law of averages will even out your results. But your luck can run hot as well as cold.
Not only will your luck vary greatly -- which personally I feel is good enough reason to be wary of putting all your eggs into your Land Raider basket(s) -- but your success will depend just as strongly on your opponent. I think Necrons should be the enemy you fear most, as just about everything they have will be capable of taking out your huge investment. After them, most Tau, IG, Eldar, and Dark Eldar armies can handle multiple Land Raiders by the time turn 3 rolls around and then wallop you good. And then there are highly mechanized versions of space marines and even witch hunters which can also handle such a list. (I know this because my regular opponents are Necrons, Tau, IG, and mech Space Marines. One guy plays Orks, but everyone else has tank, ordnance, and heavy weapon-centric armies. And in all games not against those Orks, at no time has my proxied/borrowed LR[C] survived past turn 2. Ever.)
I'm not saying the LR is worthless. But it is difficult to employ in an army where it is virtually the only tank option you have. Space marines and IG can all afford to take one or even two Big Kewl Tanks because they can get lots of other heavy weapons and vehicles for cheap in support. Far more options than DH can possibly get, even by inducting IG or -- if doing without GKs -- allying with space marines.
Everything we have is so pricey as it is. Which means that we will always be outnumbered and having to guard against casualties as much as is possible. The problem is so great that even a single investment into a LR makes us that much more susceptible to losing (or winning, true enough) on the roll of a few dice. Which just isn't palatable to me. I'd prefer to win or lose according to my tactics, good or bad. Not according to chance. Which is why I just don't take the beasts, much as I like 'em. I'm too much of a control freak.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014