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    black templar questions

    im starting warhammer and im thinking of doing either white scars or black templar.
    my friend told me a bit bout them but im still a bit fuzzy.
    could someone give me a detailed explanation on black templar, there pros, cons, and maybe an example of a 1000 pt army set up?
    thanks alot guys


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    Senior Member Rogue-Angel's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert, but here goes:

    Black templars excel in close combat. They can't take devastators, which is all the better; They rarely use heavy weapons on infantry anyway.
    They can mix their scouts and tactical marines into squads of up to 20 men. Expensive, but quite powerful. THey lack the ability of taking veteran sergeants, but every squad can equip a marine with power weapons or fists.

    They also have this special rule that, whenever a marine is shot down, they must take a leadership test. Failed; no biggie. Passed; they RUN FORWARD 1d6 inches.

    They also MUST take an emperor's champion. This is an independant character of limited CC-capability, but quite nasty in a man-to-man fight. This guy counts as an HQ choise, but doesn't count towards the Force Organisation Chart, meaning you have to take another HQ as well, and can take up to 3 HQ choises (the champion and 2 other).

    Finally, they have a small number of Vows, which enable them to gain some extra strengths in certain situations. I have little knowledge of these, so I can't explain their details...
    "I have died a thousand deaths, and I will die a million more..."



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    Member Fanix101's Avatar
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    Rogue-Angle is wise for not being an expert.
    The Black Templar have 4 Vows, you pay points when paying for the Emperors Champion.

    At 10pts you can take 'Uphold The Honour Of the Emperor'; The Infantry(nothing with an Armor Value) may take no cover saves, but can take a 6+ Invulnerable save. In addition they cannot be Pinned.

    Next, at 20pts, you have 'Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch'; Models that can Infiltrate must set up normally, if the enemy has a Psyker you move d6" towards the enemy, and if the Concealment mission special rule is in effect, the army ceases to benefit from it. Along with this, if a Psyker power is to target a Black Templar Unit or character, a 5+ will counter this power, and any Minor Psychic powers dont affect Black Templar Units or Characters.

    Then at 35pts is 'Suffer Not the Unclean to Live'; in close combat, Black Templars get +1 Strength and -1 Initiative. Dreadnoughts are bound by it, 'Scouts' are not.

    Finally, at 50pts, there is 'Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds'; Any unit that can declare a charge must do so, and they get the Preferred Enemy special rule (always hit on 3+) against the enemy army. 'Scouts' are once again not bound by this Vow, Dreadnoughts are.


    Also, both armies have advantages/disadvantages. I dont know much about the White Scars, but I know you have to buy a craploaf of vehicles; and this can get very expensive, very fast.
    The downside of the Black Templar would deal with if you want to go Troop heavy; you can take a squad of 10 'Marines and 10 'Scouts' for 260pts, but buying all those Scout models will eat away at your wallet.
    Imperator Rex - Dei Castigator

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    Must you take an Emperor's Champion even in a 400pt Combat Patrol?

    Also, can you take no vows, so ie. you just get a vanilla army, but with the cool colour scheme?

    Thanks.

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    Chilli Fueled Heretic danjones87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villa
    Must you take an Emperor's Champion even in a 400pt Combat Patrol?

    Also, can you take no vows, so ie. you just get a vanilla army, but with the cool colour scheme?

    Thanks.
    you must take a vow, because you must take an emperors chump, whatever size battle, but of course if your opponent agrees you can change the rule

  7. #6
    Senior Member Bob Dole's Avatar
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    Whoa... okay. We're getting some bad information flowing here.

    They also have this special rule that, whenever a marine is shot down, they must take a leadership test. Failed; no biggie. Passed; they RUN FORWARD 1d6 inches.
    This is close to how Righteous Zeal works, but it's off a bit. To keep it brief, you take a morale check whenever you take shooting casualties, not just for 25%. In addition, if you fail a morale check, the normal penalties apply. If you pass, you move 1d6 inches directly towards the nearest enemy you can see.

    you must take a vow, because you must take an emperors chump, whatever size battle, but of course if your opponent agrees you can change the rule
    You are required to take the Emperor's Champion in any game that has a limit of 750 points or more. (It's possibly only over 750 points... I never play 750 point games so I don't remember.) For games under 750, you -may- take the Emperor's Champion but it is not required. If you take the Emperor's Champion in a game under 750 points, I don't recall if you're required to buy a vow. However if you do buy a vow it will not function, so it's a waste of points. I really don't know if the vow must be purchased if you take the EC... you're probably better off not buying the EC at under 750 points regardless.

    Really, if you're going to try and insult a unit, at least know the rules that it uses.

    Black templars excel in close combat.
    Black Templars are geared towards close combat, and they can be scary if you get a full 20 man squad in there. However, they really aren't that much better than a codex chapter with Take the Fight to Them. The vows -are- nice (in theory... my dice never seem to go along with that theory), but you can end up paying 2 points per model for them. This is almost enough to buy a veteran skill, which may serve you better. Don't pick up Black Templars and expect them to beat CC-oriented Chaos squads or 'nids. Black Templars are good at CC, but there are other armies that do it better.

    As far as I've ever been able to see, Black Templars have two advantages over regular marines. The first is Righteous Zeal. You'll have mixed luck using it to move you up the board, however it's powerful once you're within twelve inches. It can work well combined with a mechanized approach, or drop pods. Unfortunately, Rhinos have their own problems. Drop pods are nice, however you're going to have a problem with the Emperor's Champion because he can't get a ride in one by the rules. You'll either need to have him foot slog up the field on his own (and keep him well hidden) or ask your opponent to let you bend the rules a little and let him start the game inside a drop pod.

    The other advantage is Neophytes (scouts in tactical squads.) With these guys, you can get 20 man squads. Combined with a Chaplain and the right wargear, and you can use Righteous Zeal for movement a bit. You'll take a lot of casualties, but you should still have decent numbers with all the bodies you start with. They also let you lower the cost of your tactical squads. If you replace a few Marines with Scouts in your squads, you can get cheap squads. For example:

    Codex:
    8 BP/CCW Marines, 1 Meltagun Marine, 1 Vet Serg w/ Power Fist & BP = 190pts
    BT:
    6 BP/CCW Marines, 1 Meltagun Marine, 1 Marine w/ Power Fist & BP, 2 Scouts w/ BP/CCW = 173pts

    The Templar squad -is- slightly weaker, but not by much. The points saved could buy you an additional BP/CCW Marine, and at that point you're probably looking at a stronger squad for 1 less point. A weakness is that your powerfist will only get 2 attacks instead of 3. Against units with good toughness or save, this can hurt you a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Summary
    Hey, somebody should write something easier to read!
    If you go with Black Templars, make sure you're probably going to want to use Neophytes. If you don't, you're missing out on one of the big things that help us. Be aware that the mixed armor rules can be taken advantage of if you use a high ratio of Neophytes.

    Righteous Zeal is nice, but don't count on it to move you up the board.

    Black Templars are good in close combat, but they are not specialists.

    Black Templars can have a difficulty fielding a lot of long range fire power. We lack devastator squads, and our heavy weapon tactical squads don't stand still, so we have to rely largely on tanks.

    Black Templars can look very striking on the field if they're painted well. They're all zealots, which means lots of iconography and nonsense. It's pretty and the fluff is nice.
    You play your game, I'll play mine.

  8. #7
    Tactical Avante-Gard <E!_Mance>'s Avatar
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    Oh, all of you shove over!
    *pushes other uncertain guys out of the camera shot*
    *opens Black Templar Codex*
    *ahem*. Right...

    *The EC MUST be used in every BT army of >749pts, CAN be in <750pts.
    *The EC take up no FOC slots, allowing you to take another 2 HQ
    *The EC MUST take a vow. Once the vow is taken, IT ALWAYS EFFECTS!
    *Righteous Zeal:
    -If the unit isn't pinned or falling back already, then, and ONLY then, will they get to do that Ld tst for the d6 move to the nearest enemy
    -Won't work if tank shocked or the only one left (duh)
    *They excel at CQC. Listen not to the sceptical, for they shall lead you into doubt.
    -Sword bretheren have cheaper T Hon, and can use a storm shield EACH (costly, but good)
    -Purity seal equivlent is cheaper, great for those annoying fall-back moves
    -Purity seal equivlent can just be taken by the sqaud. No more T Hon needed.
    -"One model per sqaud can have..."
    -Fearless in assault (holy ****!)
    -basic troops may use LRC transport, thus allowing for tank charge of competence
    -Jetarines get 3pt storm shields!
    If this isn't enough proof, go stick your head in a pig.:wacko:
    Last edited by <E!_Mance>; May 12th, 2006 at 16:40.
    Post your army lists in the ARMY LIST section! Not that hard!
    48W/7D/11L

  9. #8
    Member Fanix101's Avatar
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    Just a quick note, Bob Dole said:
    However if you do buy a vow it will not function, so it's a waste of points
    And the book says "Forces smaller then this (750) can include the Emperors Champion, but do not have to(though this means that the army will not benefit from any vows)."

    This is stating that if you dont take him you wont get the vows, not if you take him you cannot get them.
    Imperator Rex - Dei Castigator

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    Tactical Avante-Gard <E!_Mance>'s Avatar
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    Yah, Bob Dole just likes to hear Bob Dole talking about Bob Dole, Bob Dole!

    Some people should get their facts from a 'dex, not hearsay (no offense to any of you out there).
    Post your army lists in the ARMY LIST section! Not that hard!
    48W/7D/11L

  11. #10
    Senior Member Bob Dole's Avatar
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    I think they've ruptured my spleen.

    Wow, two people jumping down my throat over a minor misread of the rules. I think I earn a ribbon for this. Yes, if you take the Champion the vows function. No, you probably don't want to take the Champion in games under 750 points. At least I never would. You pretty much get exactly what you pay for when you buy the Emperor's Champion (add all the wargear onto a basic marine, and the points come pretty close if I recall.) The boost to his stats -does- come for 'free' however. He's not a bad unit, but I've never been overly impressed by him.

    If I was to spend the points on an HQ unit in a small game, I would go for a Reclusiarch or (maybe) a Marshal. The Reclusiarch gives you great bang for the buck (just like it does for all marines.) Normally, I'm all about the Marshal. The new Zeal rule means you really do need that boost to leadership. With only one or two units that are effected by zeal, however, he may not be the best thing you could take.
    You play your game, I'll play mine.

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