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If you haven't heard of it Fishes of Fury is a Tau tactic where two devilfishes will make a V shape pointing towards one of your squads. They then disgorge 20 firewarriors through the side hatches into the inside of the V. Since skimmers don't block line of sight anymore the fire warriors then rapid fire into your forces without fear of being charged, and with enemy units needing to make a leadership test to target them.
Now it's tauted as a very effective maneuver against Marines. But it takes ~400pts to pull off, by my count will only kill about 5 space marines in the initial shooting, and can potentially leave those fish and firewarriors very exposed.
I'm wondering if some of you have any actual experience with it, and if so how well it's actually worked towards winning the battle as a whole.
I'd ask the Tau people, but I'm guessing they'll give me story after story of it working against Marines when they are in fact blasting away some noob or a nine year old that they would have beat anyway.
I'm just hoping you guys are honest enough to post if it did work against you.
The only Tau player I know is a complete fool who refuses to acknowledge the existence of the new codex. The last time we played, he tried to assault me with fire warriors.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
... Right...Originally Posted by ze_poodle
But the real worry when it comes to the Fish of Fury isn't so much the initial volley (well, not against Space Marines, anyway). It's more that you're going to have a hard time actually getting away from all of those Rapid Fire shots. If you move away, they're likely to follow you, and then you'll lose a further 5 Marines. FoF is most effective against large, slow, lightly armored units (Orks, basically).
Plus, FoF isn't always with 2 Devilfishes. I find that using 2 in the situation you described would be risky.
Plus, look at it this way, we (Tau) have in general more basic troops than you guys, so while to you 'only' losing 5 can make a difference. plus as said, its not only the inital volley, its the fact that after that first volley you have at most 5 models left in your 10 strong squad according to your experiance, that means you can only kill at most 5 (10 with rapid fire) of our 24 warriors, to me, we come out winning, plus don't forget the Devilfishes, thier Gun Drones 'can' pin your squad, making it so you can't get away or retaliate, and they can add to the damage.
Obviously its not the perfect tactic, but then again, there isn't one! So I must say it can be deadly in the right conditions, and works pretty good in other conditions. I've actually had FoFs help me nearly win a game against a superb Necron player. so its not completely ineffective vs armored opponents, it's all about rolling as many dice as possible.
Actually the only guy at my shop who uses it had to get help ith his list, by me. So, I bring 2whirlwinds, and when he jumps out of those devilfish, boom! But truely Marines will win the shot out, statistically. Marine: 3+, 3+, Then 4+ save. Fire Warrior: 4+, 3+ then 3+ save. A marine will kill .222 Fire warriors a turn, a Fire Warrior will kill .111 Marines a turn. So for 1.5 times the price, you get 2 times the offensive power in shooting.
Yeah, but remember that there are at least twice as many Fire Warriors as there are Space Marines, and that there are guns drones and/or burst cannons firing as well.
That sounds like a bad Japanese karate film.
Okay, this does seem rather effective at first but when you look at it, its not that bad. Despite the fact that the one thing that tau focus on is shooting, they aren't very good at that to begin with. Fire Warriors fall rather easily to an effective Tactical Squad. I've seen it happen, I haven't experienced it personally. My judgement, way too pricey for a one time thing, know what I mean?
I'd have to say that this tactic should be used against the most expensive squad possible. The squad can't react in any way other than shooting back or running away, so if its done right, it can be quite effective in terms of points.
It looks like there was a small thread like this over in the Tau forum and they seemed to think it was a mostly special case move except miketehfox here who seemed to think it was largley random but occasionally usefull.
Anyway I know that in theory it's potent and hard to get away from and is best used against an expensive unit. However actually using it requires a points and deployment investment and a good situation to use it can either not come up or the deployed troops could find themselves in a bad position.
For example so far the ancedotal evidence is a loss to necrons (mike said it helped but might some railguns have helped more?), and a case where the entire fish entourage would find itself under a number of pie plates of doom.
I suppose I should also ask if people have seen fishes denied their fury. For example if the Tau player had a couple of devilfishes loaded up near each other rearing to go, but you got a couple land speeder tornadoes into a position where fishing your command squad would result in mass carnage. Or maybe you moved an assault squad near that devestator squad the Tau player was eyeing and they called off the fish for fear of having both fire warrior units and possibly both rear armor sections charges in one assault.
In case you're wondering I'm considering doing something similar with a different but similar army. But the FoF's but I was worried it's credentials were.....fishy. I do appreciate the tactical analysis but specific experiences mixed with ancedotal evidence would be best.
Just FYI, but everything in this game is random, so don't bring that up, its a completely moot point. In my experiances I used FoF at least once per game, and even when it didn't work out perfectly, I found that afterwards the FoFing squad attracted more firepower than usual in the following turns, putting less pressure on the rest of my army, so in a sense it was win-win, obviously not the most ideal win-win situation, but you gotta take what you can get.Originally Posted by sunnysideI had 2 Broadsides, and other that taking out the DSing Monolith, they didn't do much other than kill a couple of Destroyers, the FoFing Fire Warriors did much more damage and really put the heat on. I'll explain more on that battle later.Originally Posted by sunnysideHere is where I'll talk about that battle, my first game in my first tournament ever was against the Necron player who had won the last 3 tournaments, along with that one and the next one, so needless to say I was already at a huge disadvantage. First third of the game I was losing ground and generally not doing much. 2nd third I took out all of his Immortals (he VoDed them close up) with Suits and Ion Cannon armed Hammerhead, I unleashed a Double Fish of Fury against the main group of his necron warriors, lots fell, and little got back up, a bit of luck I'll admit, but having that large firebase there really helped keep the heat off my other units, and eventually our warriors pretty much wore each other down, I have 1 squad of 3 Warriors stickj around to teh end of the game, lost one whole squad the the third was at or just below half, i also took out his Monolith as stated before. third half I had some bad luck, as no matter what I shot at his 2 squads of Destroyers couldn't get them below half strengh, one was at half, and the other just above. It was a cleanse mission so if it wasn't for the table quarters his Destroyers held, I would have lost by 1 Victory point, just 1.Originally Posted by sunnyside
So, to answer your question, it helped alot, and if I had been able to do more damage to his Destroyers in the third part of the battle I might have pulled off a draw, which wouldn't have been to o bad for a Rookie who had taken on the Champ. He even congratulated me afterwards for playing a great game.
Now, Necrons aren't the most Squishy army out there, there have been games where with a little luck and multiple (like 4 or 5) FoFs have decimated Eldar armies with little loss to my army.
But this game is ruled by luck, so anything can happen.
Now about some other comments....I'm willing to bet you don't bring 2 Whirlwinds to every game, but still, any tactic can be ruined by a prepared army. Also while yes SMs can kill more FWs a turn, if we go first and cut your squad in half, well, you only kill half of what you could the next round, and don't forget the Devilfish's weapons too as stated by FireDrake28.Originally Posted by DingarethJust don't forget, it isn't always a one time thing, I once pulled off 3 FoFs with 1 squad in a 6 round game, then hit the unit first and a Hammerhead Submution Round for a few crisis suits clean up the crumbs. Plus as far as cost, it costs about 225 points for a nicely tooled out FW squad + Devilfish, Sms pay about the same thing (AFAIK) for a full squad with Sarge, weapons and Rhino, but I think we can pull off a FoF better, no? (IMO, yes)Originally Posted by Dark_Angels_MasterJust coming back to this quote...Originally Posted by sunnyside
I don't think you looked properly, no offence but Based on my judgement, its one of our standard tactics, onbviously Static armies can pull it off, but for the mechanised and Hbrid armies it is one of the used tactics.
Wow...well, thats all my opinion of course.