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  1. #1
    Tactical Avante-Gard <E!_Mance>'s Avatar
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    Traits and Strategists.

    Is anybody else out there an aspiring Strategist and/or Tactician?

    I'm seeing a lot of stencils here and they do work. But what about the future? If this keeps up there won't be any diversity. 5th edition Codices will be "at 1750pts, you must take this, this, this, this, and this." Just like the experienced players. Traits are the same too. They nearly always use a form of 'let's get a lot of assaulty marines!' ability and take flesh over steel or Eye to Eye if they must.

    The only diversity I'm seeing is where the assault Marines go, or what the Tactical marines have with their chainswords. We're always using the same traits.

    Instead of thinking about the repercussions gaming-wise of using a less common trait, why not just go ahead, think up a list with it and try it out? Sure it'll be hard to win with at first, but that's what practice with your friends is for! To get good.

    Once, I actually saw somebody toying with using Purity Above All, the Apocethary trait. Guess what happened? In an instant everybody else dove on him saying not to use it, that they should use Take the fight to them instead, "More assaulty Space Marines that way, and Apocetharies aren't able to use their power in close combat". So?

    I for one like to think how I would use the other traits, but don't speak these ideas because they will be condemned. I stand by mt divergence as it suits my chapter's fluff, but I'm not above at least thinking how it would've worked otherwise.

    For instance. Tactical sqaud with Plasma cannon = screams and pointing to the Lascannon instead, fair enough. Purity above all\\actually using that apocethary sergeant = screams saying you could spend those pts better on an assault marine (who'da thunk it?).
    Using a Plasma Cannon on an Apoc-enhanced Tac sqaud = not a true grit with assault weapon, not Assault marine squad, not even a dev squad with 4 missiles = sh*tstorm of fury. If it works or not is as yet unknown because of such wailing and gnashing of teeth, but it just might work well. It would also help your dev squads when shot at.

    Traits like these should come out into the open. All strategists out there think of a trait you'd never normally use and work out how to use them. Don't waste time thinking how you could incorporate it into your current army, make a clean slate and make tactics around these traits. This way perhaps newbies will see how to use their chosen traits, that THEY chose.

    If this isn't answered in a week, I'll assume nobody's interested in this stuff. Meh.

    Last edited by <E!_Mance>; June 24th, 2006 at 07:09.
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Chaplain Grimm's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree Mance. Way too many people taking the same traits OVER and OVER and OVER again. I personally stick with codex marines (EG: DA/BA/BT/UM) but were I to make a traits list, I'd go for fluff and spice over win at all cost. Seems everyone takes eye to eye, honor you battle brothers, true grit let's make assaulty BA/SW/BT clones. I would totally love to see some traits lists made with the "less effective" "less popular" SM traits. I just may have to think one up for fun myself.
    Last edited by Chaplain Grimm; June 24th, 2006 at 07:31.

  4. #3
    Hrimfar Kristofer's Avatar
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    Yeah! I totaly agree!

    I would like to see a list with "heed the wisdom of the ancients" and "the heretic-thingie" (don't really remember the full name of the trait). Then you could take traits that allows you to use less fast units like: Eye to Eye!

    If you want to play assaulty space-marines. Play BA like me or SW/BT! Don't think that a Divergent Trait chapter will hold it's own against one of the classic monsters of melee

    Besides! Where's the fun in making another assaulty marine chapter fluff wise. All stories are already taken (all the good ones anyway).
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  5. #4
    Tactical Avante-Gard <E!_Mance>'s Avatar
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    Admittedly I take the true grit aspect. But it's not strictly to assault, I've always found great glee in robbing my enemy of their power and strengths instead of increasing my own. The extra attack makes me able to go toe-to-toe with an assaulty squad for a while longer and the counter-attack removes their charge bonus. Last thing I want is to fight 31 attacks, 4 of which are a powerfist, when I only have 11 hits. So I reduce it to 21 each side, makes it more even, and no Assault Codex (BA/SW/BT) is immune to my debilitation aura.

    I also take the Dreadnaught thing. I'd just like to keep My dreads alive a little longer and if I want to stock up on Vets (as I'm prone to doing) and still use a Dread I can.

    I hate the Land speeders and they way they're treated like the perfect unit. So I deliberately mimited my ability to use them with Eye to Eye.

    We Stand Alone is a 'weakness' which says that Marines are good enough for you on their own. Which they are.

    In other words, I've specifically tailored my Chapter to be Black Templar Killers.
    Last edited by <E!_Mance>; June 24th, 2006 at 10:41.
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  6. #5
    Son of LO Silver Wings's Avatar
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    I may have to disagree.

    Space Marines became much more flexible under 4th Edition.

    >Vindicators can now move and fire and are far more worthwhile.
    >Whirlwinds don't need to guess a range, just place and kill. They're better now.
    >Bikers cost less and can Turbo-boost. I would never have touched bikes in 3rd edition.

    There is now the option for loads of differen't trait combo's as well as the old Stalwarts DA, BA, SW etc.

    Marines are brilliant, you don't need to play with the prescribed units, ML Devs, 10 strong Assault Squads with Chaplains. I never use those units.

    At the end of the day, some players will use the "optimal" units in a desperate bid to win. Some will use which units they like/find fluffy/enjoy. There will always be Marine players with identical armies, because it's obiuos which units are value for money and which aren't. CodexM has been craked.
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  7. #6
    ISIS Secret Agent Squishy mpdscott's Avatar
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    The whole point behind the Traits was to allow fluff armies to become tactically usefull armies. And as far as I'm concerned, if someone builds a Trait army, then it needs to be fluff inspired, not just efficiency inspired. There is a reason there are some less-efficent Traits around, it's to add variation. If you don't build a fluffy army, you might as well just make the codex reflect the most efficent list, and have all those rules standard for every marine.
    Mysterious Member of the ANZAC Clan

  8. #7
    Member Kaze No Koe's Avatar
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    Well.. i agree with E!_Mance .. i'm trying a list (my first SM Trait) using all plasma weaps (i like to take chances) and "Honor your Wargear" / "Cleanse and Purify" Advantages.. i can't remember the cons. But i do it coz it will be pretty unique.. at least where i play .. and i don't want to be one of the 10000000 cookie cutter marine players.. Maybe we should all use a list that appeals to us fluff wise.. and use the traits that further improve the fluff or our army.. not only something that is "uber" to play.

    btw.. anyone got recs on how to play a pure plasma army .. plz pm me .. thanks a lot

  9. #8
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    Amen. I agree 110% with you E!_Mance.

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  10. #9
    Tactical Avante-Gard <E!_Mance>'s Avatar
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    Right. To help you.

    You chose
    Cleanse and Purify: The trait which allows your tacs to take 2 heat weapons (Flamer, Melta, Plasma).
    Honour Your Wargear: The trait which allows your Devs to be elites and Heavy support.

    You said you like taking chances with plasma.

    My strategic advice...

    Use your Tacs and Devs almost exclusively. THey are your focussed point and they will own the battlefield if you let them. You can have 6 of each. So we'll have to make them work together.

    Your Tacs can be your plasma monkeys. With the cost to convert the Las to the 2nd Plas being only 5 more pts than the 1st one's cost, you can easily accomodate in your pt limit. Now, Plasma is a VERY efficient infantry killer, and rapid firing 4 shots of the stuff will ruin anybodies day. With anti-infantry in mind, I say only give your vet sarge (if you decide to take one) a power sword, not a fist as the initiative will be much appreciated when killing the things. Just for comparison, my Tacs with Frags and 10 men (fisted sarge) costs me 230pts a squad. Yours with frags & 10 men will cost 210pts. If I can field 4 of mine with no troubles in a moderate army then you should be able to.
    >>>Now to work on your anti-armour aspect warriors.<<<
    Devs being Elites should generally not use Plasma. The cannons are just as powerful as the rifles but fire a blast radius, once, if you don't move. Focus on either extreme long or short range. A 4 Lascannon 5 man squad with Tank Hunters will eat up the tanks like a hastily prepared breakfast. To take the enemy's mind off of them, why not use a 4 Multi-melta 10 man Dev squad with Infiltrate right nearby. The second should porbably used in a pair for panic purposes. The elites out of the way, the HS Devs need to avoid multi-meltas and go for 3 lascannons in 8 man squads.
    >>>Don't forget the HQ<<<
    Definately need an Apoc. Stock up on Plasma rifles and give your Champion T Hon and a Plas pistol instead of his bolt variety. Your serge should have a fist as this is your lead element and you need to be prepared to take anything on. Characters should definately be a Commander as the Ld9/10 for your whole army will help the Devs well for shooting purposes. In >1850pts armies there should be 2 Command Squads with no Banner (you aren't looking to assault so a flag won't help that much), Fist Sarge, Plas pistol Champ, Apoc, and 2 Plasma Rifles. Each Fist Sarge should also have Meltabombs. These will serve well in Heavy Bolter Razorbacks.
    >>>Tactica explained<<<
    Rhino rush your Tacs and Coms. Don't worry, the Infiltrating and long-reaching Devs will limit enemy attack channels. Only Infantry would be a feasible choice to get close to the Rush, which gets met with the few insta-kill no save attacks from the Devs and a hail of 6-8 plasma rifle shots and 1-2 Heavy bolter salvos. What infantry?
    Then Drop pod a Plas & Meltagun Tac squad behind enemy lines and create havoc. This will eventually flush out the enemy armour right into your devs.

    Ideal list is;
    2 Com squads led by Commander riding in Razorbacks.
    4-5 Tac squads; 3-4 with 2 Plas and sword sarge in Rhinos; 1 with 2 Plas & Melt in Drop pod and sword sarge with bombs.
    >2 Dev squads; 1 with 5 men, 4 Las, & Tank Hunters; 2 with 4 Multi Melts & Infiltrate.
    Damn fluffy and evil to field! Enjoy-joy!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Wings
    I may have to disagree.

    Space Marines became much more flexible under 4th Edition.

    >Vindicators can now move and fire and are far more worthwhile.
    >Whirlwinds don't need to guess a range, just place and kill. They're better now.
    >Bikers cost less and can Turbo-boost. I would never have touched bikes in 3rd edition.

    There is now the option for loads of differen't trait combo's as well as the old Stalwarts DA, BA, SW etc.

    Marines are brilliant, you don't need to play with the prescribed units, ML Devs, 10 strong Assault Squads with Chaplains. I never use those units.

    At the end of the day, some players will use the "optimal" units in a desperate bid to win. Some will use which units they like/find fluffy/enjoy. There will always be Marine players with identical armies, because it's obiuos which units are value for money and which aren't. CodexM has been craked.
    Um, I made this thread and made it perfectly clear what my sentiments were.
    I obviously am sick of the Same Schie&#223;e Different Decorum in our ranks. Obviously not obvious enough, because here you are, defending the very anathema to this thread.


    Please do not advocate the same tactics used constantly everywhere. I play against those with the same strategem as is splurged here and defeat them everywhere because I try and understand what my list and traits are capable of. Through this understanding I DESTROY UTTERLY any cookie-cut list foolish enough to disgrace my path. I'm offering others to try and adopt this approach and innovate.

    I didn't want to know from you what I can read from the 2 things you MUST HAVE before playinbg Space Marines. Next time, tell me how you could use them without resulting to stock standard stuff and I'll listen.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Fluff armies becoming tactically useable armies? What, am I trying to debate on pure theory here? Where are the examples? We know what Traits are and what they're for. No anger here, just please don't tell me what I know is true, no matter how perverse the trait misuse is, I know what they are there for.

    EDIT: To Silver Wings, yes. You are right. There are millions of different trait combos and uses, but only 10 combinations are circulating in any number and they all focus on one purpose. Assault. "Let's be like the Black, Red, and Grey boys! We aren't crap and lame in any way!"
    Last edited by <E!_Mance>; June 24th, 2006 at 19:38.
    Post your army lists in the ARMY LIST section! Not that hard!
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  11. #10
    The Love Muffin [Black] Katalyst's Avatar
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    I want to start playing space marines and with a chaos backround of almost 7 years, I don't want something that everyone else is playing.

    "You need a chaplain in that assault squad."
    "You should have 4 missile launchers in that devistator squad."
    "OMGWTF?!?! a tech marine?!?!?"

    Ugh, I hear it all the time in stores and online. I know they are tried and true tactics, but what about thinking outside the box?

    Thats why I'm thinking about playing White Scars. The only White Scars army I've ever seen was used in the armaggedon Campaign in a WD.


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