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I'll admit it is somewhat amusing to toss a cat in the water or put a fish on the pier, but if you want something productive to happen, you'll have to pick up the cat and throw the fish back.
I was a little lost when I first read about mobile guard, so I looked into it. I'm still lost.
Why would you go completely against the grain of an army's strength? Guard revolve around two things, heavy weapons and tanks, in that order. So I was suprised the first time I see a guard army that has not a single heavy weapon platform in its infantry squads. I wasn't really that amazed when the guy lost in a crushing defeat. Why do people feel the need to treat guard like Tau and do a Chimera of Fury? There's a huge difference between 24 S5 AP5 rounds and 18 S3 AP- rounds with a random BS3 special weapon. Drop troops is even more fun. I know some people who play the list, none of them have illusions of success, they merely find it funny to drop in sentinals and guard infantry who inevitably die a turn later. The only thing worse than guard without heavy weapons, is guard arriving piecemeal without heavy weapons.
I'm not accusing anybody of being stupid, I just find it odd that people wanna try to teach this old dog a new trick. Why not try an army that can actually pull this kind of tactic off? Am I alone in finding this counterproductive?
Blais's Paint Studio-Getting broken armies good soft scores since 2009
Honestly, I think IG are pretty flexible, and played right, a mech list could be quite effective and powerful. There are many options available thanks to the many variations of weapons and doctrines, so the IG aren't limited to just this or just that. Thats part of what I like about them, you could get 10 IG players and make 10 totally different potent lists.
I see your point of view, but I am here to defend the mobile guard. I field a mechanized list that goes sentinal heavy. I do not have heavy weapon in my line squads, they are all on my sentinals and Chimeras. this allows me to maximise mobility and fire power. I have had a lot of success with this list, recently defeating a Tzeentch list, and an ork list on a jungle board no less.
"Let them come and feel the wrath of the Hammer of the Emperor! FIRE!!"
Captain von Drake
396th Belruvian Heavy Infantry
Regimental Battle Honors: Medusa Campaign
Alma III Campaign
Well the trick is really in figuring out what the strengths of those concepts are relative to the Guard and exploiting them to the fullest while minimizing other weaknesses. Knowledgable Guard players indicate that with a Mechanized list you're not taking all those Chimeras just to roll up and shoot. You certainly don't deny your Infantry Squads heavy weapons on that basis. What you do is gear up all your regular squads for anti-tank duty and deploy them as normal on the board (as a smaller version of a "standard" Guard list). While the infantry kill tanks, you send that large column of Chimeras across the board to wreak havoc on enemy infantry. What you're buying are medium attack tanks, not transports, and you build your list as such. With Drop Troop lists, you only drop squads that benefit from it. Hardened Vets with 3 special weapons, special weapons squads, and finally Command Squads outfitted with 4 special weapons all become suicide squads meant to inflict harm to the enemy out of proportion to their cost or importance. Regular Infantry Squads which are almost worthless as drop troops become more valuable when you deploy them regularly (or even better, make them infiltrators with Light Infantry) and kit them out for handling mostly infantry threats while the suicide squads eliminate tanks and other hard targets.
The key in using these specialized or "novelty" lists isn't in adapting them in the purest sense and building your entire force around them. Rather you take the concept and find how it can be useful and then exploit it while playing a mostly typical Guard game. You still stand and shoot, except with the units that don't. Talk to somene who's gone up against a Drop list like the one detailed above, and I bet they won't find the idea of falling Guardsmen quite so comical.
"I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."~Lord Yossanrion"Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."~Quick"Well thought, intelligently put, with a hint of sarcastic bastard!"~Diggum's Hammer
Mobile can be different things:
1. Movement (Infantery)
2. Movement (Vehicles)
Well, for Infantery, my main HQ is designed for mobility + 3 squads (2 infantery and a heavyweapon). All my vehicles move most of the time (leman russ, 2 demolisher, 2 hellhounds) and i have 3 deepstriking squads.
so 12 out of 15 units are mobile, though the 3 infiltrating squads tend to be stationary in the game, but 9 of 15 ain't bad for guard also.
Oh, and i don't waste a single shot moving.
Well mastershake you have a point, but it goes deaper than that. . .
Guard are what guard are: they're human, and if you make them out to be more than that, or try to force them into roles that they don't belong they are not going to do well. Guard in a chimera are not firewarriors in a devilfish, and they just don't have the same firepower in that situation, nor should they try.
That said humans have this nifty ability to move around, I'm sure you've noticed. soldiers of 40K still have legs and know how to use them, furthermore they have various means of transporting themselves.
As microcosm so insightfully pointed out there are many ways for guard to gain mobility.
Moving infantry is usually not a generals first choice, but it does have it's advantages: Infantry within 18" of their opponent can rapid fire their guns rather than single fire, and seperate themselves from their companions to create a melee buffer to prevent the enemy from just walking from squad to squad in a killing frenzy that the guard can do little about. Making your squads ready to do this with only a special weapon and no heavy allows them to loose minimal firepower from this tactic, and it also helps a great deal when the mission is one that requires the guard to move into a position to capturing objectives, and allows them to respond to changes in the battlefield situation. Of course the drawback is a loss in raw firepower, but in return you are better able to apply the firepower that you have.
The concept is valid, but I dare say that you saw it exicuted poorly. The concept requires that the needed heavy weapons not found in your line squads be found, or be conpensated for in other places. (such as joesawgunner's cimera's and sentinals) It also requires a keen understanding of how and when to move your troops.
So to sum it up, it's harder to do right, but is quite effective if done properly. The same comment is also accurate for drop guard. My guard army is about half drop troops, and I've got about a 70% win percentage with them. Not saying it to brag, but to point out that drop guard can work too.
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I had fiddled around with making a mech guard list, but it seemed way too flimsy/lacking firewpower compared to its static normal list.
"...a swarm of mechanised locusts sweeping over the land, stripping it bare of resources, bringing death and destruction to anything that stands in its path. Emperor preserve us against the predations of these so-called Orkish cults of speed!" - Cardinal Nomura at the Conclave of Hessen
All good points, but the central issue is not using mobile units, but rather using an entire mobile army. Every IG incarnation I have fielded has had mobile assets, b/c the tactical advantage many of these offer is undeniable. It's much like Tau in HTH. If utilised properly and at the right instance, it can quickly turn the tide of a battle largely because of your average opponents disdain for the army in this respect, however, you wouldn't do an entire Tau army based around HTH would you?
Sokhar made a good point, and I agree wholeheartedly, In fact, that how my mech list is arranged, but I've seen far too many guard players who try to use the chimera loaded with an infantry squad like the Tau FoF tactic. Their opponents usually take a few casualties, then the slaughter commences.As a general rule I find my army has precious few shooting phases even with infantry and heavy weapons. I can't really envision further reducing this just for the sake of a degree of mobility that my infantry squads don't even find useful.I see your point of view, but I am here to defend the mobile guard. I field a mechanized list that goes sentinal heavy. I do not have heavy weapon in my line squads, they are all on my sentinals and Chimeras. this allows me to maximise mobility and fire power. I have had a lot of success with this list, recently defeating a Tzeentch list, and an ork list on a jungle board no less.
As for compensating for the lack of heavy weapons, this is the part where I'm completely lost. Why are you even playing guard if you value this degree of mobility? It's one of the few armies that require insanely careful planning and execution simply to give it an almost insignifigant degree of mobility by the standards of most armies.
I enjoy tactically challenging lists, thats why I chose mechanized despite my dislike for chimeras. But to try and get an army to do something it was never intended for, in a game with so many different armies to chose from, seems like a waste IMHO.
Blais's Paint Studio-Getting broken armies good soft scores since 2009
I am confused on how a mech list has less heavy fire power than a standard list? My Mech Guard list shows up with 7 chimeras each with a heavy weapons squad worth of weapons (HB, ML, HS) so those are 9 shots at 36" or greater all better S than a lasgun. All of those weapons are capable of firing on the move and with careful planning you move them 2 - 3" closer to the enemies deployment zone so the opponent has to test his LD to shoot at your squads with PG or other weapons.
Now when I go Grenadier I have 4-5 squads + command squad and the same chimeras dropping our their continuous heavy weapon shots.
But mech list also need serious heavy power so you show up with 3 tanks or other heavy choices (mine are 2 demolishers (1 with PCs and 1 with Multimeltas, each with hull LC) plus a basilisk.
Many of the previous posters have hit it on the head... our infantry should be busy killing tanks so our tanks can kill infantry. Our rapid firing weapons are nearly worthless unless you are shooting other guard and things like gaunts...
Mech list are nice if you want a list that resembles non-trench warfare infantry armies.
I have actually found my new Drop troop list to be not only really fun and fluffy to play, but also extremely effective. True it is a big risk b/c parts of your army arrive piecemeal or miss their drops, but the confusion it inflicts on you (I have found) is minimal compared to your opponents confusion. That misdropped infantry platoon w/ PGs and LCs which meant to land near the obj to wither it with masss fire instead misdropped into or near cover right by the flank of some enemy vehicles....or better your 9 man vet assault squad w/ 3 meltas missed landing near that dreadnought but instead landed near a group of assault marines or an enemy tank.
I think mobile guard is fun and fluffy so long as you play to the strengths of the aspect of mobile guard. I.e. for drop troops I maximize special weapons, particularly melta and plasma, I utilize extensively drop sentinels, and I make sure all infantry PLTs have heavy weapons as well as having infiltrating heavy weapon teams. That way there is some "static" firepower (found in the infiltrating HW teams) as well as some "mobile" firepower (in the DS PLTs w/ HWs, the DS vets w/ loads of SW, the DS suicide demo/melta squads, etc)
My drop list has something like 13 meltas, 7PGs, 4PP, 4ACs, 3HBs, 4LCs, 4MLs, 2Demo, an Earthshaker, and a bunch of PW and PFs. It has sufficient far range firepower and excellent close range firepower. I don't need to sit and shoot and enemy to death when I can just pp up next to him and do it. Plus if you drop a PLT of infantry on a target, and you manage to space it right, he can only attack 1 SQD, leaving at least 2 more to rush in in support.
So I think people should experiement with mobile guard and I think its good to break with the tried-and-true "Static Sit and Shoot" Guard army. After a while that type of list becomes boring to play with and against. End rant