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I play both armies ive come out find that the space marines are quite better. Because they dont have as much expaensive wargear as chaos for chaos deamonic gifts. Most chaos players have around 150points of a lord or if you want to cxall it deamon prince.
When i was playind my cousin i had my lord wiped out in cc but then the next squad that i faught he died with my chosen accompieing him. The only time an expensive lord is good is when he has a lot of cover fire from the hs. Especially a lord is worse versing a librarien.
I hate to say this but... your post hurt my eyes and my soul... PLEASE CLEAN UP THE TYPOS (and bad english). If you want someone to spend time responding to your post, please spend some time writing it.
I concur, space marines are better, I don't really know if they are because they are, or if it is because I am a Hard-core Imperialist.
I would disagree, CSM are far more flexible than us SM players and ought to have an advantage because they are so much more flexible.
Their Squads can take Veteran Skills without traits, thier Sergeants can be much nastier and they have a huge range of nasty tricks. Their Raptors can take infiltrate and 3 special weapons. Some of thier units are insanely good, Death Guard Terminators with T5 cost just 1pt per model more than Deathwing!
Daemons are savage, they can be summoned near direct into combat with ease and are very hard to stop with shooting. Thier Vehicles have a much wider range of upgrades available. If you were to buy a Bloodletter profile Aspiring Champion (3+/5++ power weapon etc) he would cost 50 odd pts!
We may have Attack Bikes and LS(T)'s but Obliterators are a steal, for our Vindicators they get Daemon Princes and our Whirlwind Ordnance is pointless v's MEQ's compared to an indirect Defiler. Thier Predators can have av 14 too!
Every time you read this sig: a fairie dies!
I fundamentally disagree there, it's simply different sides of the same coin.
The level of specialization of chaos can be intimidating, but the model counts of these armies invariably suffer especially when an army is dedicated to a book of chaos. The biggest problem is that, with a few exceptions, the models you are fielding, from a wounding and armor standpoint, are no more resilient than basic 14 pt chaos marines, but they cost substantially more. The armies that have improved stats (nurgle and tzeneech?sp) have a substantially reduced impact at long ranges. The trade off is pretty clear, more guys, but alot less of them.
Defilers are a joke among most experienced chaos players. While the model looks nice, the point cost is alot more than it needs to be b/c of hardly used weapon upgrades and HTH stats. Another issue is the unusual size characteristics of the model that make it unnecesarily difficult to hide. The chaos vehicle upgrades are little better as many of them cost an arm and a leg, and don't increase the overall survivability of the vehicle to a point that is worth it. Most of the time, you're better off investing the points in your already small force of infantry rather than rattling off some ubsurd number for a tank that will probably die by turn 2 anyways. Obliterators are another source of humor. They usually die to a lascannon in the first turn or they DS and die to a melta, they suck in HTH, are slow as christmas, and cost alotta points for what equates a two wound terminator.
The chaos HQ's are intimidating for most players who don't realize that tooled up deamon princes are an insane investment of points. The ones with deamonic stature are prime shooting targets, and the ones without it, are rarely better than a marine captain with some lightning claws and a good invulnerable save. For each upgrade a DP takes, he has to kill more enemies to compensate, and he has no gaurantee that he wont get his head caved in by a hidden power fist like every other HQ (and if he purchases the gaurantee, thats even more points to make up).
Good deamons are few and far between as most of them lack a sufficient save to last long against shooting. Your average deamon requires a list based around it for it to be of any good (have you ever seen deamonettes vs. a round of bolters rapid firing? Ouch!). Bloodletters are the only exception and they are a hefty 26 pts (can't recall if thats correct) each. Greater deamons are huge monstrosities and I can't count how many times a single squad of marines has beaten one into oblivion.
Chaos is the most vulnerable army in the game to attrition. What that means? If you kill one model of a chaos army for every one he kills (in case of guard or Orks 2-3), you'll win every time. The trick isn't dwelling on their "cool tricks" but knowing their achilles heels.
Blais's Paint Studio-Getting broken armies good soft scores since 2009
umm thanks for the imput captain? This is pretty much your post in a nutshell.. "lol Space Marines pwn joo fag lol!" Pretty much what your saying here.. space marines arent "better" persay, they are different armies. Thats like saying ha Eldar is better then Orks
“Krump first, assk qweztions neva'!"- 3000 Orks
Dark Eldar- 1500 1/0/0
"the very gods for vengeance cry”- 3000 Dwarves
I play books of Chaos because they're fun, but if you're talking about straight power-gaming ... Chaos pwns. Ta be specific, Chaos Undivided pwns.
The secret is not spending points on all the tricks mentioned. One or two will do just fine. For a demonstration, go look at Caluin's Undivided list from Votewar MkIV (votewar is at the bottom of the forum frontpage).
Summary of a good list:
A cheap, nasty lieutenant with a darkblade or an ether lance, and daemonic speed or a bike. He will have more attacks than his marine equivalent, higher strength, and with furious charge he will hit first.
A single unit of cult marines, Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne, doesn't matter. All of them are dead hard.
2-3 units of 8-10 chaos marines with all bolters, move thru cover and plamsa, or all bolt pistols, infiltrate, and 2x meltaguns. Add power fists or power weapons w/ daemonic strength as needed.
Add a unit of 8 bloodletters or 10 daemonettes for the perfect off-board close-combat reinforcements.
A single unit of raptors with infiltrate or a single unit of bikers with furious charge. Either way, give your fast attack meltaguns and make it 8 strong. They will walk over most troops in the game.
Two squads of chaos havocs, both with autocannons and tankhunters, 8 strong. Add a third squad with plasma guns and move thru cover if you can afford it.
This list looks benign. It isn't. Trust me. A good player will smoke you with it, and if he has a few points left over, why, he can do really evil things ... like giving his bikers the Mark of Slaanesh. Or adding a greater daemon of khorne. Or a unit of Nurgle terminators, which won't die ... ever.
PS At 1850, Alpha legion can put 70 infiltrating marines on the board, no problem.
PPS Another evil combination ... iron warriors: 1 vindicator, 1 defiler, 1 basilisk, 1 havoc squad. So much ordnance, so few targets.
Last edited by Sabrewulf; July 7th, 2006 at 00:53.
Comfirmed Disciple of Chaos
Rogue Angel: "Meet da Chaos Lord"
Wow, he figured out the evil secret of 40K- Balanced army lists work best
In all seriousness, that army list doesn't look that different from some of the better marine lists out there, and ,in a one-on-one slugging match, it'll come down to who gets first turn. Chaos has a bunch of goodies, but alot of them don't change the list that fundamentally and those that do could easily be copied by a marine chapter. A marine army with "see but don't be seen" could easily infiltrate just as many models as the alpha legion if not more.
As for the iron warriors, the best IW player I've seen had 4 havoc squads. Functions more reliably than all those templates and will average out more damage and survive better when exposed to fire. This still pales in comparison to the "honour your wargear" list that packs 6 devastator squads in 1850.
Both armies have advantages and drawbacks and the new marine codex evened the odds pretty nicely between these two old favorites.
Blais's Paint Studio-Getting broken armies good soft scores since 2009
Chaos is not necessarily the better army. It simply has more versatility. They can take powerhouses like Daemons and Obliterators. But how much do those units cost?
Quite a bit, my friends.
They sacrifice affordability for the versatility. Compared to most armies, Space Marines are rather cheap for specialised units. One can make a specialised Marine unit for half the points of an Eldar Specialised unit. (Not talking about Assault Marines vs. Banshees: So drop that little rant that you had boiling).
Consistently, I can outnumber my brother's chaos, because his basic troops cost 19 points.
I look at it this way, he can have his versatility, so long as my Lascannon can eat him up in one shot.
chaos marines r basically space marines, but more focused on CC, their special weapons and upgrades cost more, but their guys r really hard to kill, i saw a game where my freind was using an eldar seer counsil army, and his seer counsil was getting killed by the chaos bikes, although he was getting pretty unlucky with the bright lances, but even so, a seer counsil can own wraithlords in CC, but it couldn't even beat khorne powered bikes
so ppl who say chaos marines suck, ur wrong, no army in 40k sucks, 40k depends only on skill, and everyone can get good with any army, including chaos marines
My Librarian's familiar just killed a fire warrior and passed two 6+ saves, he has earned the title of The Familiar