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Ok, so here's the deal. My friend plays CSM, and always always ALWAYS fields at least one unit of Khorne Beserkers. I think 12 models, a little over 300pts. He gives them this collar and gifts and such, and because of that and the axe of khorne thingy, if they initiate combat, they get an insane amount of attacks (seriously, more than one person involved checked the math, he gets like 30+ attacks with all that). But even worse, they get the "feel no pain" thing, which let's them take what is essentially and extra armor/invulnerable save, but it doesn't count as either one (no negating saves!. In a 1500pt fight, he fields one or two of these units. ONE of them can tear through most everything (including a GM + 6 termies).
I need to know how to beat him. I play a puritan GK army, and sometimes have inducted IG. I need a low-points, ranged way to dispose of the KB's. With 1500pts, inducting a Leman Russ is basically out of the question. My GM + retinue can, with good rolls, make it a mutual destruction, but wasting a 600pt+ unit on a 300pt unit, when my opponent has a SECOND unit of the same is NOT an option.
I put together a new list to fight this threat, basically a GM and small retinue, 2 fast attack GK squads, 2 troop GK squads, and 1 fully-loaded Purg squad. With some math (helped by my friend with the KB's, even HE wants to know how to beat the bastards), we determined that a Purg squad with 4 psycannons is the best bet (12 shots at 36" per turn, plus I can retreat when they get close and continue the barrage).
Any better and/or cheaper alternatives? Inducting SM is out of the question(I love my GK's too much!, and preferably no inducted IG.
Methinks a GK Dread with Plascannon is in order. Plasma weapons are great against marines, and they have templates. Lance strikes would help, too...uhhh...if I remember correctly, Bassies are cheaper than Lemans.
OO!!! OO!!! Keep a 4 psycannon Purgation Squad behind a meatshield of =][= Stormtroopers!
Yeah the dreadnought would be an excellent choice as u can use it in 2 different styles. U can equip it with assualt cannon and power fist, making an extremely good at charging at the enemy as he can shoot off 3 with his cannon and 2 with storm bolter (if equipped) per turn before charging into them. U could also equip it with lascannon and missile launcher for a super long range fighter but personlay i prefer to use it as a mixture. Power fist with stormbolter and lascannon makin him good at range and close combat. If u got 3 dreads, u could make 2 as long range support (lascannon and missile) and 1 dread as close combat (powerfist and asualt).
'No evil will escape the just punishment of rightenous'
Hey im no Grey Knight but i know a Brother needs help when i see it. I like to Use what i call the El'Jonson pattern Drednaught. The El'Jonson Pattern Drednaught follows
1. Missle Launcher : Primarily using Krak Rounds (or Berserker poppers as i call them)
2. The Plasma Cannon : aka KILL,MAIM,BURN as i believe Kharn once said it idly applies to his own troops suffering a Blast from one of these ugly mothers.
3. Searchlight : At 1pt cost you can never go wrong
4. Smoke Launchers : When ***** hits the Fan, the Smoke Grenades get going.
Hope it Helps
Faithful Ultramarine Commander
i agree with every one else a dreas is the only way to go a plasma cannon will blow them away and without a powerfist or melta bombs they wont even be able to hurt it in assult
otherwise a really well placed orbital strike would do the job
<span style='color:red'>-=Read the sigrules=-</span>
First of all, I'm glad everyone's helping out here! We're even attracting other Imperials to our side for this fight
Everyone's talking about a dread with tl lascannon AND missile launcher... this might be a horribly newbish question, but I thought that you could only use one Dread weapon per shooting round!
InUoTaBeRu: the first thing I did was put a meatshield in place, it actually helped him (his KB's Sweeping Assaulted my ass )
Dead Monkeys: the only reason I don't want to rely on a good lance strike is that it isn't as dependable as an already deployed squad.
And I'll get back to you guys on how the plasma dread does compared to a 4 psycannon purg squad.
Like everyone said, if your opponent isnt fielding anything with an AV of 14, take a GK dread with plasma cannon + missile launcher. A template S7 that ignores their armor save will make a mess of them and a krak missile or even frag can do damage too.
Psycannons are good. A purgation squad in an of itself usually isn't the best thing as our Hvy Spt slots are valuable, but 4 psycannons will make a mess. Normally I suggest instead making sure each of your troop squads have 2 psycannons each.
Also, your GM + retinue should be able to take them on in CC. Make sure he takes Sacred incense. Now, I admit I don't know the KB's exact stats but... Even if they charge your GM should have a higher I with sacred incense. Models in base contact get removed first, so that should severely reduce down the number of models getting those insane amounts of attacks. For this reason I usually equip my GM with 2 CCW to get that extra I5 A.
You could also make your troop units large and keep them in cover. At best if he takes frag grenades you will go simultaneously, but all you need to do is withstand his initial assault.
Probably your best bet for CC, however, is to charge them first. They only get their special bonuses on the charge. If you can charge them first, or tie them up with a unit for 1 round, any of your GK or your GM should be able to make short work of them. Sure, it can be a challenge to get the charge but it can be done.
I'd also recommend you ask your friend for his rulebook and look at their stats and special rules. For example (and I could be wrong) I think they have to charge the closest enemy. Check and see what their S is on the charge. If it is less than 6, what if you take a Dread with powerfist? Guess what, your Dread with it's AV12 front can safely take their charge, so lure the KB with the dread then follow up with a charge of your own. Once their charge is broken I'm pretty sure KB are no better than any other assault army, which GK are the equal to.
How big are the units of basic troops you are taking? If you take squads if 10 GKs you'll have 21 attacks yourself striking at the same time and at WS and Str higher then the Khorne.
They get some many attacks because they are double armed (I believe) So they will always have that number if attacks but being Khorne he will probly have that nasty Furious charge that gives them a str bonus in the charge. So take that away and your just facing troops with a pistol and a CC weapon, although with Chainaxes they do take your save down to 4+.
Dvang has a great idea, distract them, tie them up with a squad then crush them with another squad of say.. Terminators or even just throw another Grey Knight squad onto them it should tip the scales into your favor.
The Purge squad should do you well, Remember your Justicar can take a Psycannon to so give him one And with them behind a meatshield you have a good firebase.
Well, I think I should help from a chaos player's point of view. First off, they cannot all have feel no pain, or the collar of khorne, or the axe of khorne. Only the aspiring champion. So I'm sure that would help. What I can't help is the Furious charge w/ the strangth an initiative he most likely gives them, but The axe of khorne thing he tried to sneak past you im sure decreased the attacks a lot, as well as the collars etc. But he can still give them khornate chainaxes.
Well, I hope I've been helpful!
Mad Props to Angel_of_Rust for the sig.
Well would you look at that? After what you said, Xaero, I read my friend's CSM codex, and you're right. He's been giving those upgrades to his aspiring champion and saying the effects of them apply to the whole unit!
Well, that makes them a lot easier to handle!
And Elandili: So you can have a purg squad with 4 GK + 1 Justicar, and 5 psycannons? That rocks!