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I'm still fleshing out a list before I go buy my army (just to pace myself), but one piece of advice I got was to cram my list as full of as many assault cannons as legally possible. Is there a reason for that? At first glance, it looks like the range would hurt a lot, and rending seems too chancy.
Are assault cannons really that effective? Is it standard practice for lists to just cram up on them?
Sigh. Who gave you that advice? Yes, assault cannons are good, but not so good that you should forgo using other weapons to make room for them. The 4 S_ shots and rending makes them an excellent anti-personnel weapon, and in a pinch, can take out tanks. However, the 24' range means that whatever has them has to waste turns moving to get into range. Which brings me to my point. Assault Cannons are great if they are on deep striking Dreadnoughts (Drop Pods) or included in Terminators that are deep striking, the only exception being fast moving Land Speeder Tornados. The first 2 options are both shooting threats AND close combat threats to the firing line of your enemy. The third is a fast moving barrage of anti-personnel fire, (with Heavy Bolter shots as well). Ultimately though, Assault Cannons are just one of the weapons you should have, and not necessarily the predominant one. If you are an up close and personal army, like Black Templars or Blood Angels, I would highly recommend them. However, if you are planning for a stand back and blow em' away approach, I'd pass and go for more Missile Launchers and Heavy Bolters. Just my two cents, cheers.
Last edited by Katie Drake; August 25th, 2006 at 16:57.
Sure, it's standard practice.... for Deathwing armies...
Don't get me wrong here, the AC is a great weapon, and that 24" range isn't really much of a handicap (you usually wind up within 30" of the opponent at the start anyway).
But it's hardly the only thing you need to take, and the only units that can legally take one are (almost) all quite costly themselves. Termies, Dreadnoughts, and LRC's eat points really quick, and often aren't as effective as they seem. Tornado Land Speeders (HB/AC) make for a very efficient unit though, definitely look into them.
The whole idea with the AC is that it's basically a Heavy Bolter with an extra shot, extra strength, Rending (which can be extremely dangerous... or not.), and reduced range to compensate. Very useful, and if you happen to be taking Termies, Speeders, or a Dread anyway you should slap one on there if at all possible - but don't go out of your way to include them.
Any way you look at it, you're going to be building your army with Scouts and Tactical Marines. Everything else is just the icing on the cake. The cold truth is that you're going to win or lose the game with Plasma/Meltaguns, the odd Missile Launcher/Lascannon/Heavy Bolter, and lots of plain old Bolterfire. Build the army around these, then add in your fancy troopers and vehicles to plug any gaps that your basic troopers can't fill.
True but when the ACs are hot you are rolling alond. I play a deathwing force and it was nice taking down a Baneblade with 2 rending shots... 1st one to make it throguh did 2 stucture points and the second one finished it off... so a close to 600-700 point model off the board. At this rate I might have to pick up a ravenwing force next with tons of the ACs... can't go wrong with the terminators ability to move and shoot and assault. But I will say of the 4 squads of terminators I put on the table I only had 4 assault cannons. I also showed up with one flamer and three cyclones.
The deathwing makes for a fun force which requires a ton of skill to use do to limited numbers. But a deathwing force with nothing but assault cannons would get chewed up. I kill as much with my 2-3 storm bolters per squad + powerfist as my assault cannons do though.
They are the weapon of choice against almost any target.
But dont go eldar cheesy with them, and make a list of 1000 points with 10 ACs, unless your playing at a powergaming tourney.
Otherwise your opponents will start to cry.
A Landspeeder Tornado squad with Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons can tear apart infantry. They're effective, especially when supported by Speeders and Bikes with Meltas. Beware: your points will melt away if you go overboard with Speeders.
Assault Cannons are really only nice for a bit of support here and there. Generally, they draw fire too, because they are too overrated. The Speeders are really the only effective way to use them (in my opinion) because they can swoop in from across the field to give support where needed.
Terminators and Dreadnoughts however, are sitting ducks, and they're pretty much gone if they get stuck in the open. The Assualt Cannon (I Find) is not suited very well for Terminators or Dreadnoughts (unless your whole army has close combat weapons and likes to charge).
Use it more as a Plan B, rather than depending on the units carrying it not to die.
I wouldn't say your points melt away with speeders. More like your $$ melt away. LSTs are extremely point efficient for their firepower.
I agree with Furnace. If you can get in 24" an AC is the best weapon vs anyhting from infantry to heavy tanks. But lists that field solid ACs are both expensive and usually frowned upon except for pure power gaming.
@Alaric: I don't understand you comment about needing CCW for a force fielding ACs. All terminators are decent in HTH, the squad needs the protection of the Power Weapon or Lightning Claw SGT or Character (Librarian with Force Weapon) attached to help them get the 1st attacks in (Except against eldar, Dark Eldar, and some nids). The basic terminator will normally chew through his points worth in HTH unless you bump into a squad with lots of power weapons.
@Tibbles: The way deathwing fights is to continually concentrate 1-4 squads worth of terminators with ACs, SBs, and cyclone to kill anythreat within 12-24" starting with what can charge or is packing terminator killers (Lascannons, plasma guns, powerweapons or fist). After it eliminates that threat it continually advances across the board while only facing a small percentage of the enemies numbers the goal is to use terrain to block the opponents longer ranged weapons line of sight. I field 2 AT dreads (TLLC + ML) and one assault dread (AC + SB + DCCW) they tackle targets further away and assault squads like a big terminator to hold my flank. As for cost I have converted most of my flamers into ACs with a little bit of plastic rod and the shovel handle off of the vehicle accessory sprue so it was very cheap... not to mention my entire terminator force ran me less than $97 adding in the 3 dreads takes me to around $140 and the commercially purchased land raider tops me out around $200. So e-bay was my friend. 5 man terminator squad for $5 and a 7 man squad with 2 cyclones for $10. Deals are out there it just takes patience and the ability to strip paint.... As it stands right now I am fielding 4 squads + librarian and still have 1-2 squads to paint and assemble + a chaplain.
I will be getting a ravenwing force the same way here after my termiantors are painted. Starting with swap meets through the club and then moving on to e-bay I will still end up buying some models to support my local store but the goal is to get as much cheaply as possible first. I watched a ravenwing force with 2-3 bike squads with multi-meltas+meltas used to good effect last weekend and was impressed to say the least. I envision that the assault cannons in a RW list would be used to go after squads of troops so the meltas and hit the good targets and or to soften up a target enough to try and polish it off in one shot of close combat.
Assult cannons are good. But no more than that. Yes, they chew up just about any kind of infantry (even termies if you fire hard enough on them), take on the biggest of vehicles with a bit of luck and are quite cost effective (especially on a LST). But relying solely on assult cannons is the worst mistake you can make. Most people overrate them bacause they seem so powerful. 4 rending shots may seem a lot, but you still have to roll those 6's. Yes, you get a bigger chance of it, but by taking more AC's you get less bodies, and thus your AC's are more vulnerable.
In the end it is the normal marines that have to do the job, and a couple of marines wil often preform just as well - if not better, if only because there are a lot more of them. In a termie squad of 5 with 2 AC's costing 240 points you need to kill only 5 men to get rid of it. For 40 or 50 points less you can get a 10 man tactical squad, veteran sergeant with powerfist (not needed, but it proves my point), a plasmagun, and a lascannon or rocket launcher. This squad is fare more survivable, and thus it takes a LOT longer to remove those fearsome weapons. AND you can take more of them. As Chaosbrynn said in his articles:
Tactical squads are the backbone of our army. Don't break it.
Even with the deathwing (which I am, if I may say so, a veteran in) you can't rely solely on the assult cannon. I ALWAYS have at least one cyclone squad and a tank hunter dreadnought, if only because they look just a little bit more scary and take some fire away from thre assult cannons. And they are a lot better at tank busting.
"I have died a thousand deaths, and I will die a million more..."
Why don't you post your list. There are too many variables....what force are you playing? How many points in the first go 'round etc....Originally Posted by VinNorris
I like assault cannons but that does not mean you should take 9 of them.....what are you trying to do?